Why is Faith so Important to God?

First things first. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith in two ways- faith, the substance of things hoped for
- faith, the evidence of things not seenFrom the second definition we can see that belief in an unseeable (with the eyes) God does not mean a blind belief or a belief in the face of no evidence. Rather, faith is defined as being evidence of a class that allows belief in, for example, the existance of God. The reason why "faith in God" would be considered important is that "faith in God" is the means supplied by God to man whereby a man is saved. Seeing as there is no other means whereby a man can be saved it seems sensible that the only way be emphasised. Note that "faith in God" is given as a gift from God to man - God doesn't expect a man to believe without his supplying the means whereby the man can do so. God supplies the evidence > man believes. Material evidence is great when you are considering material things. Immaterial (or spiritual) evidence is great when you are considering immaterial things

God-supplied/biblical faith does various things. At root, God-supplied/biblical faith engenders belief and trust in God - long after it has fueled a belief in Gods existance. You shouldn't suppose the word "faith" to be some kind of universal currency. At root the means involves man surrendering his independance from God...to God. That is the core. Man was not created with the intention that he operate independantly from God. The picture given all over the Bible is man intended as son - ever dependant upon and subject to the household of his father. God as perpetual father with son never leaving home. The story of the prodigal son is a good example. The son illegitimately demanding independance, leaving home, suffering the consequences, being convinced of his error by his circumstances, returning home, welcomed back to where he belongs by the father, happy ever after..."Faith in God" is something that man has to be brought to. God attempts to work the circumstances so that man will turn to God and rely finally (like the prodigal son) not upon himself but upon his fathers provision and steerage. I wouldn't go asking questions about how it is you could come to have faith in a father you don't believe exists: you'd be a bit premature in the asking. You'd be on the outward journey of the prodigal son - inheritance in hand (this life, your gifts, career, marriage, health, wealth and happiness) and in no need of the father. It's only when circumstances conspire to stick your snout into the trough alongside the pigs that the thought "this can't be right" begins to cross your mind. The evidence is? God shows up. I could go about describing him for you but it would miss the point. Suffice to say that words cannot describe him**if you insist on knowing then the Bible is as good a place as any for attempts at describing.

Faith is a big word in the Bible. I've just touched on an aspect and am in the process of learning myself. Let it be known that past experience of Gods direct dealings with me exist as memory even though he can be distant from me at this point in time. My memory of his promises then allow me to "have faith" in him now - even though I am not fueled by evidence-of-that-past-quality at present. Powerful it remains. I got badly burned 6 or so years ago - the evidence-then informing the care and attention I pay around dangerous equipment up to this day. I have faith in the power of boiling water. You believe electricity lit the lite-bulb because of evidence (faith) as to the workings of electricity in a resistive wire. You believe your brakes will stop you because you have evidence (faith) that they will stop you - they have before. Faith = evidence. Belief is dependant upon evidence (faith). We shouldn't mix up faith and belief like we do weight and mass (I don't weigh 70kg) Neither. Faith (evidence) reveals what is true. When we come to know what is true we enter a state of belief. We believe. We become believers because of faith.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

In the dictionary granted. What would you make of Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)though?

quote:

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Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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"Substance" and "evidence" are pretty strong words indicating faith to be that which leads a person to believe something. Evidence is what leads a person to believe something. I believe my brakes will stop be because I have evidence that that is what they do. I have faith. We could say that belief that is not blind is that way because it is substantiated by evidence. Are you not simple equating faith and belief here?

Suppose faith to equate to evidence for a moment. That is, suppose God's showing up in front of you as equating to evidence of his existance. If he did just that you would have faith in (or evidence of) Gods existance. Don't worry about what that evidence is like or how you would be convinced it was him - just hold that idea of what faith is or what having faith means. Given faith = evidence, we obviously cannot have faith without having awareness. Neither can we have faith whilst remaining unbelieving. The apparent chicken/egg situation can be resolved as follows - the simplest example to take it the case of the atheistDuring this atheists life, God attempts to bring them to the point of being convinced that are in need of God. It doesn't matter that they don't believe in Gods existance at that point of being convinced of this - they only need to be brought to the point of believing they need 'God' to exist.At that point the person has reached the end of the line in terms of their willingness to struggle against God. God has resisted their operating as independant, self-sufficient beings. He has resisted them charting their own course, setting their own morality, deciding their own goals. God resists by acting in opposition to them. He troubles their conscience. He witholds blessing and protection. He permits worldly troubles and concerns to assail. He humbles men using the glory of nature. He worries the God-shaped hole passed on 'genetically' by Adam and Eve when they first created that hole with their sin. All this without our athiest friend being at all aware it is God at work. Of course, a person is permitted to escape and dodge and avoid being troubled. God attempts to convince - he doesn't force conviction.When the person has been driven to the end of the line (as defined by God) they will "call out on the name of the Lord". The pressure God has managed to bring to bear squeezes this call out of them. For the atheist this might take the form "I don't believe you exist but if you do then... Lord I need you"The surrender of a person, their stepping off of the throne, their relinquishing chief say over the course and direction of their lives is Gods criterion for saving them. He carries out the necessary works associated with salvation: he declares them righteous in his sight, adopts them as children, crucifies their old nature, comes to reside within them by his Holy Spirit. He shows up...and the former atheist is utterly convinced of his existance. The former atheist believes in God because he has all the evidence he needs to be convinced of Gods existance.

I wasn't suggesting that the substance was physical nor that the evidence was either physical or empirical - the realm in which faith operates is the spiritual and immaterial. Reason for belief and hope still requires substance and evidence.It seems clear to me that this verse views faith as that which fuels engine of belief. Similar to the way vibrating soundwaves are the substance and evidence that leads to believe the kettle is boiling.Time for a cuppa

Perhaps I laid it on too thick. To summarise what I was doing, globally.a) Giving a biblical definition of faith. Whatever you understand faith to mean needs to be set aside when considering what I say involving it - because I won't be using your definition. Sometimes it is hard to let your definitions go.b) Explaining how faith (as defined) can sit within the overall process of salvation. Sit in such a way as to resolve the apparent chicken and egg that occurs when you use other definitions of faith - especially the dictionary one. I wasn't attempting a proof - definitions of words don't have proofs.I wouldn't bother imagining what it would be like if God turned up for you. You couldn't even begin to imagine. It would indeed change everything You'll have grasped that (biblically-defined) faith/evidence is the thing which leads me to believe spiritual things. If I have evidence for something I will believe that thing. Faith and belief are two distinct things.What is the difference between faith and belief in your view. So did I. 6 or so years ago. I used to have faith in my own abilities to steer HMS Iano through this life. I'll remember the day I was torpedoed and sunk for the rest of my (earthly) life. What do you mean...bear?Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I'd be interested to know what you think the differences between faith and belief are (in the non-biblical sense). Where is the difference to your mind here:"I have faith that my brakes will stop the car""I believe that my brakes will stop the carBut you're right: I distinguish between a dictionary definition and a biblical definition of a word. "Death" is another word that the Bible has a view on which would not marry in all ways with the dictionary definition. When examining the biblical case it is best to stay in the zone and terminology of the Bible (in so far as it differs or expands upon the dictionary zone) Per biblical definition faith = evidence. Thus: "I also think you are saying that your evidence is evidence enough to believe in spiritual things" It is indeed. To my way of reckoning the only reason I 100% believe anything, spiritual or no, is that the evidence is evidence enough. When the evidence is less than enough then my belief is less than certain. It can be a suspicion that..., a feeling that..., a weak belief that... a hope that...etc. Plenty, daily. Positive and "negative" I didn't know you were off it...

Perhaps I'm biting off more than you can chew . I'll try and slow it down. I'll assume you are aware that I am using a biblical definition of faith here - not a dictionary definition. If so then its easy.Meet someone and you know they exist. You have evidence that they do. But you don't know anything about them. Can you rely on them? Trust them? After a while you might come to rely on them, to trust them. You have come into possession of evidence for this due to knowing them for a while. By seeing how they operateEvidence in both cases. Evidence for knowing they exist. And evidence for knowing you can trust them and depend on them. In the Bible faith = evidence. Insert faith for evidence above and the meaning stays the same We are not using a dictionary definition of faith. We are using a biblical definition of faith. See above. Faith is defined in a way other than the universal way. For clarity and by way of example, the definition of faith being used by me ("Faith... the evidence of things not seen") renders this sentence:"In other words, evidence of the unseeable involves dependance on God and that is what God ultimately wants."Which is the case. At the moment you are acting independantly of God (to the extent you can anyway). God wants you to come to realise you need him. When/if you do he will evidence himself to you. In that sense, evidence of the (empirically) unseeable involves you coming to be dependant on God. When you do you will see what you currently cannot. "Unseeable" means not detectable by sight-based evidence, sound based evidence, touch, taste, smell-based evidence. Empirically invisable. Faith = evidence. A different kind of evidence to the standard 5 sense evidences. Thus spake the definition of faith we are utilising. This evidence reveals that which 5 sense evidence cannot. God, amongst other things. If another 10,000 types of faith were added tomorrow it wouldn't alter the truth of one true one - if one true one existed. The objection is fallacious. Baby with bathwater (if the baby exists) One would expect some expression of uniformity amongst those supplied of God. The trouble is determining who those are. Only then can you comment on uniformity. No true Scotsman territory I'm afraid. This objection is too fallacious. As has hopefully being amply underscored. Faith is evidence - not blind.

You've just gotten your car back from the garage where the brakes have been serviced. You don't know that they will stop you yet. Or some such situation This is how a dictionary compares faith and belief The one is evidence based the other not. In the dictionary Nope. Belief in Gods existance occurs due to the evidence for God existance - just like the dictionary says belief happens. Belief is evidence based. The dictionary parts company with the Bible when it defines faith however. The dictionary has faith and belief as two sides of the certainty coin - the one certainty (belief) involving evidence, the other certainty (faith) involving no evidence. That kind of faith is commonly called blind faith. Amusingly faith in God is given as the example The biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 is thus. "Faith...the evidence of things not seen (heard, tasted, smelled, touched)". Faith is evidence of the class which deals with the non-empirical. The immaterial. The spiritual. The supernatural. Belief in God comes through having evidence. This class of evidence. By having faith.I have faith in God. That is to say: evidence of God. Not a trace of doubt in my mind..Edited by iano, : No reason given.