The Other side of the Jesus coin

Mister Pamboli,In your own opinion please.1. Is salvation only through Jesus Christ?2. What is sin to Allah?

Mister Pamboli,You know why Christ has not brought peace? Because men love darkness.

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You know why Christ has not brought peace? Because men love darkness.

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I imagine Islam would give exactly the same answer - Allah is closer to the hearts of men that their own veins, and so knows their weaknesses. That is why he is forgiving and merciful.I guess Islam could also respond that Christ has not brought peace because he did not intend to. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." It don't get no clearer than that, now, do it?

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In your own opinion please.

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1. Is salvation only through Jesus Christ?
2. What is sin to Allah?

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In Islam, a sin is an act against the will of Allah. What else could it be?As for my own opinion on the first question? I fail to see the relevance of my personal faith to the topics under immediate discussion. You are disparaging other religions and implying, falsely and unjustly, that Christianity is in some way free of the issues you bring to our attention in other faiths.Yet the history of Christianity to this very day is soaked in the blood of those who suffered from the intolerance of Christians. You have not even addressed a single one of the rebuttals to the numerous aspersions you have cast on Islam, let alone other religions you decried. You were shown to hopelessly ignorant about prophecy in other faiths, to take but one example.Sadly, when you continue to cast the same aspersions, in the face of reasoned corrections, without any sign of understanding the issues raised, you are in danger of displaying an apsect of that arrogance and hypocrisy which so demeans some versions of evangelical Christianity. I am sure that is not your intent, but I think you could best dispel it by addressing some of the issues raised in this thread, and those points rebutting them. So far you have questioned the peaceful nature of Islam and all but accused the faith itself of being murderous. What say you to the counterexamples given?In this thread you will do well to remember Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? We have yet to see the slightest sign that you have cast out yours.

Mister Pamboli,Could you please answer those 2 questions for me? And that verse about bringing a sword in context He is saying there would be division in families because some would not believe and repent. We look at the account of these nations God had to destroy. But why did He if He is a Holy, just and a loving God? Lets look at the Amalekites. 400 years they would not repent. The Israelites were doing the same thing. They would take their children for example and sacrifice them to the pagan god Molech. They set the child on the altar and burn it. In Jeremiah the Lord says, "I do not agree with these things but these things do not even enter my mind." So Israel was doing the same things as these other nations and He had to judge them as well. The Lord says I do not desire the destruction of the wicked but for man to receive my blessings. God has to judge sin even if we like it or not. He cannot let these things pass. What true religion fits with history, with science, logic? Because there can only be one truth. People say all the time, "Well, thats just your belief". The Bible is really the only book that says we should reason with Him and use our minds. Not by feelings. The God of the Bible is the only God that has the perfect resume with what we see in life. God created everything beautiful but man has destroyed things by choice.

Mister Pamboli,I know I am a sinner. We are just talking about the doctrine of these religions. Is Christ the only way? Yes people have commited murder in the name of Christ but it contradicts His word. Hitler did. Do you believe that when men strap bombs to themselves it is commendable to Allah? Do you believe Catholocism and Christianity are the same thing?

Mister Pamboli,I am going to look into the prophecy of other religions. Would you please be willing to let me know of some prophecies that have taken place so I can deal with this topic this weekend?

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Could you please answer those 2 questions for me?

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I did. I answered one clearly and for the other, declined to reveal my personal faith as it is irrelevant to the discussion.But yet again you are doing little more than parading your inability to answer the legitimate points raised. Let's have a quick summary, so that we can see how much you chosen to ignore, from my posts alone, never mind the posts of others...1: You have failed to address the question of prophecy. You claimed prophecy and history made the Bible unique. You ignored the numerous counterexamples. You are perhaps now addressing this?2: You claimed a special position for the Bible in relation to the seven day week and marriage. You ignored the counterexamples which were given you.3: You implied there was some significance in the martyrdom of disciples. You ignored the counterexamples which were given you.4: You asked repeatedly when Islam had brought peace. You ignored the answer given you and counter question about Christianity. You ignored the counterexamples of other peaceful religions.5: You accussed the Holy Qu'ran of commending murder. You ignored the counterexamples given you of support for genocide in the Bible.6: You claimed millions had been slaughtered in the name of Allah. You ignored the counterexamples of slaughter by Christians, except in the vaguest terms.7: You claimed the Crusades were led by Catholicism. You ignored the historical correction that the Western Christian church was unified at that time. You ignored the counterexample of Protestant torture and murder.8: You claimed that Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism do not have prophecy. You ignored every one of the numerous and detailed counterexamples given you. Again, perhaps, this is one you are looking at? It will be interesting to see to what extent you allow them fulfilled prophecies to the degree of accuracy or precision you admit for Biblical prophecy.9: You represented a naive view of the Islamic doctrine of judgement. You ignored the detailed counterargument.10: You asked again when Islam has brought peace. Yet again you ignored the counter question. You also ignored a specific, detailed, rebuttal by another poster.11: You asked again about murder by Islamists. Yet again you ignored the counterexamples of murder by Christians.12: You asked again about murder by Islamists today. Yet again you ignored the counterexamples of murder by protestant christians today.13: You asked abot the Islamic doctrine of sin. You ignored my answer.Here are thirteen issues. I would interested in your specific response to them.So far, the most we have had out of you is vague handwaving about Christians murdering being against the will of Christ, despite the long documented history of Christians murdering and slaughtering precisely because it was the will of Christ. As the protestant armies in Scotland used to cry as they went in to battle "Jesus and no quarter!"I would also draw your attention to rule 2 of the forum "Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of new information or by providing additional argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without elaboration."[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 04-05-2003]

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I am going to look into the prophecy of other religions. Would you please be willing to let me know of some prophecies that have taken place so I can deal with this topic this weekend?

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best to use google to search the web. It's not for me to put forward examples on behalf of other faiths.But I look forward to the results, as I am sure you will be looking into this with an open mind and an open heart, using exactly the same standards that you would wish others to use when pondering the prophecies you claim. For example I hope you "don't just take one verse and build off that." You will I presume study their scriptures in depth, just as you recommended we do with the Bible. And of course, you will be studying them with a heart open to receive the truth of their message - as we are so often told is important when reading the Bible?We shall see on Monday.

Mister Pamboli,I believe it is easier if we look at one topic at a time. You have said that you are a Christian. Would you please answer the following question for me? Thank you.Is salvation only through Jesus Christ?

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I believe it is easier if we look at one topic at a time.

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Good. Let's start with the first one you raised ... whether the prophecy and history make the Bible unique. I and others have provided pretty specific rebuttals. You have failed to address them, but you said you would be looking at the issue over the weekend. It seems natural that this should be the first issue we cover.

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You have said that you are a Christian. Would you please answer the following question for me? Thank you. Is salvation only through Jesus Christ?

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You seem determined to pry into my personal faith. I will not be party to that, as I do not feel it a suitable subject for discussion on a public forum. This refusal is neither evasive or dishonest, but a matter of privacy. My personal beliefs are not relevant to the objective claims you have made.As for these objective claims, I have tried to address them with objective rebuttals.[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 04-05-2003]

So if you are a Christian and I am a Christian why will you not tell me what you believe? What is the problem? I believe being Christian should not just be personal. We should talk with others about these things.

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So if you are a Christian and I am a Christian why will you not tell me what you believe? What is the problem? I believe being Christian should not just be personal. We should talk with others about these things.

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That may well be your belief. But I have mad it clear that my beliefs are not for public discussion. All I ask is that you have the common decency to respect my privacy when politely asked to do so. This is a simple matter of good manners. Thank you for not asking again.Now back to the issues. You raised objective claims concerning the Bible and other faiths. Others raised objective rebuttals. Will you address those rebuttals?

Would you at least be able to tell me if you believe the Bible is the only revealed Word of God? Do you believe the prophecy in the Bible is valid? If not thats fine. I am looking into these prophecy claims. Would you be willing to briefly give me some evidence of any prophecy being fulfilled?Japanese Mappo
The Oracle Tradition of Nechung
The Great Thirteenth
PadmaSambhava
Islamic
Hinduism

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Would you at least be able to tell me if you believe the Bible is the only revealed Word of God? Do you believe the prophecy in the Bible is valid? If not thats fine.

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You stil seem to be chasing down my personal beliefs rather than the objective claims you made.As for the prophecies of other faiths, you would be best to ask an adherent of those faiths as I suggested previously. I don't think you can be looking into this very seriously. 10 seconds with Google found me the following directory entry: http://directory.google.com/...ality/Islam/Prophets/Muhammed A number of the sites listed cover the claimed prophetic forementions of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible. Searching for the other examples on google was also pretty successful.It is interesting that you appear to taking a very narrow of view of prophecy, in that all the issues you have raised so far have concerned only prediction. For some reason you appear to ignore the broader sense of An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will. Even my old copy of Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology makes the distinction made between fore-telling and forth-telling.However, you seem determined to reduce the words of the ancient prophets to little more than fairground fortune telling. It is rather sad to see Daniel and Amos treated as little more than carneys.I personally would make no claims for the fulfillment of any prophecy in your narrow sense, nor read any particular significance into any apparent fulfillments. I would be extremely surprised if you could not find examples of fulfillment equally believable to some of your examples.Here's a nice Aztec example: Cortez landed on April 22, 1519, the very day that the Aztec calendar calculated for Quetzelcoatl’s return at the end of the 13th Heaven and the beginning of the 9 Hells? Not only that, but the physical appearance of the Spaniards, being light skinned and bearded, matched the traditional descriptions of Quetzelcoatl. That's pretty good, no?