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Author Topic:   Is God a Scientist?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 33 (400413)
05-13-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lostcause
05-13-2007 9:34 AM


I'd like to respond to some of your thoughts.
I'm an atheist, so to me the most reasonable conclusion is that God doesn't exist, and therefore I'm resistant to attempts to try to "meld" the scientific conclusion of evolution with God stuff.
But there's really no reason you can't do it, if you find that fruitful. Since basically anything can be made up about God and held to be true - he's a Cosmic Scientist, he intervenes in human affairs in undetectable ways, etc - the only avenue you open yourself to criticism is your understanding of the facts of evolution. So far you don't seem to have any huge misunderstandings, but I invite you to ask questions about the science if you want to know more.
Nobody can really tell you you're wrong about what you think God is like, except for the complete lack of evidence that God even exists. But I'd like to respond to a few of your thoughts, if I may:
The bible as I see it is by the most part written by men as a way to communicate the knowledge past to them by God (through Jesus). This message was not exclusive as the prophet Mohammad (which I know almost nothing about) past the same message to Muslims and I am sure this happened to most cultures around the world.
I guess I would point out that there are deep qualitative differences between the world's religions. Jews do believe something different than Christians, Buddhists do believe something different than Hindus and Muslims, etc. So I think that the idea that God somehow told them all the same message is a somewhat dubious idea unless you have a very clear idea of what that "universal" message is in the first place. I mean, those religions don't even agree on how many gods even exist.
At the time the bible was written they wouldn’t have a clue about micro organisms and so forth so why shouldn’t we expect them to write in a way that they may understand it.
I think you do the ancient peoples a disservice. While they were certainly ignorant of the great scientific discoveries we all take for granted now, that ignorance wasn't the result of diminished mental capacity - just a coincidence of time.
Certainly ancient peoples had very sophisticated understandings of things that were complex like science; for instance the Old Testament describes a system of laws, punishment, and justice that is very complicated and sophisticated. Medieval theologians described an entire ecology of angelic and demonic beings, a vast hierarchy of heaven and hell every bit as complicated as, perhaps, modern physics.
So I simply don't think it's the case that ancient people were too dumb to know about microorganisms, for instance. They didn't know about them because they hadn't been discovered yet. Had they been revealed by divine knowledge, a system of God-taught science classes, who's to say that they wouldn't have caught on? They were certainly able to deal with a lot of other complex things.
I think the Bible, like all religious texts, simply reveals the best efforts of humans to deal with the world around them and the big questions of life - all on their own. I don't think it was a divine effort to communicate scientific information to poor benighted savages who were too backwards to understand it - because I think they would have understood it. They certainly understood plenty else.
Finally and just a last stupid question, but could Dinosaurs be considered Gods lab rats, testing the environment before he chose to release a portion of his own DNA upon this world.
Why would God have DNA? Moreover - dinosaurs lived in a vastly different environment than we inhabit today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lostcause, posted 05-13-2007 9:34 AM lostcause has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 33 (400536)
05-14-2007 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by lostcause
05-14-2007 5:40 AM


The real contention is not between science and religion but between religion and religion.
While there's certainly plenty of religious conflict, I think you've missed the main conflict - religion vs. reality. There is much that the world's religions hold to be so that just isn't.
It wasn’t really that long ago when Science itself was condemned as being magic and evil could you imagine how a message of evolution, genetics etc would have been received.
Probably the same way the early Christian message was received - viewed as heresy by many, but viewed as truthful by others.
Christianity survived. The early Christians certainly weren't telling people what they wanted to hear, or pulling punches to avoid persecution.
So I still find it pretty specious to suggest that they had to "cover up" what they knew (or what God knew) about genetics and evolution - the reason that the Bible doesn't describe evolution and genetics is because those things were unknown at the time, because men had not discovered them yet.
As mentioned before the creation of Eve by taking part of one person to create another, back then could only be applied to the donation of organs (if that) with a miracle thrown in, if you were told this now you would almost immediately assume genetic engineering, the immaculate conception of Mary can only be a miracle of the time yet we now have many immaculate conceptions through fertility research.
As a former Catholic, I'd like to point out your error here. "Immaculate conception" refers to Mary's conception by her parents, not her gestation of Jesus. (That's the "virgin birth".) Modern fertility research doesn't provide for "immaculate conception"; Mary was conceived the usual way, according to the dogma, but the Holy Spirit intervened so that Original Sin was not passed onto her, rendering her a sinless vessel for the eventual birth of Jesus.
Modern fertility treatments probably don't provide for virgin birth, either, actually. If a couple appeared at a fertility clinic before they'd even attempted intercourse they'd be laughed out of the office.
Unfortunately I cannot give you the universal message, but from religion we see a sense of morals and a beginning for all.
Not universally. Hindu and Buddhist theology hold that the world and universe are essentially eternal, and existence is a vast unending cycle of karmic rebirth. And, of course, it's impossible to find any universal concordance on any moral issue among the world's religions. Any conceivable moral question has been answered both ways by religion.
The most obvious characteristic of religion, one that becomes obvious when the world's religions are juxtaposed, is that there's no unifying principle. There's little similarity to the stories. Since it's all make-believe, different religions make up different stuff to believe.
I however was lead to believe to question God is to question something that is beyond our intelligence thereby lifting yourself to a position of equality with God thereby blasphemy.
What makes you think God is beyond our intelligence? Is it possible that the only reason you don't understand what God is, is that you're starting from faulty premises about God? Namely, that he's an actual, existing being?
Understanding cannot proceed from faulty premises. Have you ever considered that that might be your problem all along? Not that God is beyond human understanding, he's just currently beyond yours?
As a final note in my long winded rant, I find it somewhat amusing that an atheist scoffed at the idea of God having DNA, as this is what I am suggesting we are his children or a least great-great etc children. RAZD asked why we are not God-like ourselves if were an exact image, what makes God God, he creates, destroys, controls. We control, we destroy and if it wasn’t for genetic laws then we would create almost anything we desire. Why is it only humans that have this control is it not because we have a little something special in us.
What "genetic laws" are you referring to?
Like the seasons Dinosaurs experienced the winter of our planet extinction through the ice age. Noah and his ark experienced spring, the warming and eventual flood of the earth (also a time of birth).
There has been no such flood of the Earth. Had there been life on Earth would have been completely extinct. There isn't even enough water on the Earth to flood the Earth. This isn't a flood thread, but you should know - it's well-known that the flood is a myth, not something that actually happened to the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by lostcause, posted 05-14-2007 5:40 AM lostcause has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 33 (400539)
05-14-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
05-14-2007 9:44 AM


If people maintain that god does not exist then the onus is on them to provide the evidence.
The evidence is that there is no evidence; absence of evidence is evidence of absence. (What else would be?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2007 9:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2007 9:19 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 33 (400700)
05-16-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
05-15-2007 9:19 PM


A classic argument from incredulity.
No.
It's a position of incredulity; because it's most reasonable to be incredulous of claims that have no credibility.
It's not an argument from incredulity, because the argument is not "I don't believe it; therefore it's not true," the argument is "there's no evidence, therefore I don't believe it." The incredulity here is a conclusion, not a premise. You do know the difference between conclusions and premises, right?
Having incredulity, being incredulous about incredulous claims, is nothing like actually making an argument from incredulity. And it's very telling that you can't seem to see the difference, but I guess it's the sort of mental gymnastics that lead to the agnostic position of special evidentiary rules for a God they don't even believe in (just in case, I guess.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2007 9:19 PM RAZD has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 33 (400701)
05-16-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
05-15-2007 9:35 PM


Deists believe that god is not necessarily knowable and that all we can really know is how the natural universe operates.
Based on what evidence do they conclude an unknowable God?
That is not a god that can be proven: it is not a scientific hypothesis, it is not intended to be one. It is based on faith not logic.
That the claim has to be taken on faith is sufficient to refute it for reasonable people. It's always reasonable to reject conclusions that are developed without any recourse to evidence. That which is made up is almost never true.
Just like a book made up out of random words is not likely to describe the accurate anatomy of the human body, conclusions based on making things up are so astronomically unlikely to be right that we can reasonably reject such endeavors wholesale.
Surely no reasonable person can dispute that making things up is not a path to truths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2007 9:35 PM RAZD has not replied

  
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