Slavery

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The slaves were taken care of, there was no need to steal food for himself or others.

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You could say they were taken care of but only in the most basic sense. The were not taken care of like a parent would take care of their own child. It was care enough to keep them alive so that they could work.

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So I guess you are saying that you would forgive the slave and then starve to death? Remember this is the OT.

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I wouldnt have had a slave in the first part. It was not impossible to survive back then without slaves

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I suppose he could have just got a job on wall st. to off set the money he loses when the crops don't yield anything.

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no but he probably could have survived without slaves.

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How did wealthy people become wealthy?

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Some get lucky, some work hard and some exploit people

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Well now your taking things out of context. I am not taking about unjustified punishment, but somehow our narrow-minded view of slavery (also our justifiably horrible view of new world slavery), let's you think that all punishments would be unjustified, and cruel

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The bible (Exodus 21:20) contains no mention of the beating being justified. It literally justifies an unjustified beating. Sure some beatings would be justified but not all would be.

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So your basic human nature would lead to someone receiving a beating? How barbaric of you.

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No it is my legal system (based on christain values) that would lead to the punishment.

Is the moral absolute 'love'?If so,then two people who are the same gender who love each other is acceptable to you. If not, then, love is relative.

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I don't know how you want to break down the moral code.

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The Bible is pretty clear in Leviticus regarding the moral code. There is a long list of very specific rules and clear indications of what are abominations and what are not.I mean, isn't it true that you consider homosexuality immoral because of what it says in Leviticus and elsewhere in the Bible?The Bible is just as clear regarding the moral rightness of slavery as it is regarding the moral wrongness of homosexuality, so what I can't figure out is why you are so inconsistent with what rules and moral instructions you will and won't follow from the Bible.It seems arbitrary, or influenced much more by the manmade culture we live in than anything else.

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But the root of God's moral code for us is love. How all those rules relate to God loving us is what I can't figure out.

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Right. What a very confusing moral code the Bible sets out for us when viewed in total.

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But instead of trying to prove that those rules don't add up to love, I would rather spend my efforts on figuring out how they would add up to love, because if God exists, then he loves us.

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You say that you use the Bible to learn the character of God and to understand what God wants us to do, right?If the Bible seems to show God in a good, loving light, you accept that easily, but if the Bible shows God in a bloodthirsty, vengeful, or cruel light, you don't accept that, even though the Bible is supposed to be your source of information about the nature of God.How can you argue with the Bible when it is supposed to show you the character of God?

You know, you were there? Your assuming you would know then, what you know now. The fictional story is based on you having slaves. I think once you find out that there are meanings of the word slave besides what is in the dictionary, and what we know about the cruel new world slavery, you might change your mind.Do you believe in adoption? It depends where he lives, and how much land he has, and how capable he was. Not too much has changed in the world, huh? Your right. People are mean. But not everyone.
How could you believe in God, and say your following him, and then give unjustified beatings to people.People proclaim with their mouths that they follow God, and do this or that for God, but no one knows what is really in their hearts. This is why I have chosen not to let the actions of others determine if God exists or not.

Yes, it is acceptable to me. I do not judge them. Let's not start a gay thread please.But this brings up a point of the do's and don't's of the bible. I don't think that you can find God, by doing the do's and don't's of the bible. You find him through love. If you truely love God, then the do's and don't's will come naturally. I have witnessed this in my life, and many other peoples lives, including gay people.What I want to know is how slavery fits into all this. That is why we are hashing this out.I found a web-site that tries to explain it. I am only about 1/3 of the way through, but it is interesting, because it matches what I felt already, and I have no education in ancient slavery. I think everyone involved in this thread should check it out.http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.htmlOf course this is from a christian point of view. I've read liberal points of view on the internet, but all they can seem to focus on is new world slavery. Which I do not feel is a Godly thing.

Not entirely. I felt it was wrong before I was ever even close to being a Chrsitian. Even though I was raised by liberal parents. But that is my own personal feeling, and what Jesus taught us was to not pass judgement. So it's ok if a person wants to be gay IMO. Neither am I. I follow the NT mostly. I am a new Christian relativly speaking. What I rely on is the Holy Spirit, and the wisdom I recieve from him. Please go read this link:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.htmlIt gives some explanation of slavery more along the lines of what I was speculating about. How accurate this is, I don't know, it is a Chrsitian point of view. My speculation was based on what I was feeling from the Holy Spirit. It is still not clear to me, and the question remains even for myself, why would a loving God condon slavery?But the bible did not start the insitution of slavery either, nor does it actually come out and command you to have slaves.
Remember how God wanted us to live? In the garden.
Hid holiness and love in uncomprehendable to us, and we must need to experience all the bad things, before we can start to grasp it.
Remember he created evil too, but its up to you which one you choose.
The bible explains that God protects a righteous man, but I suspect ther aren't many in the world. I do not consider myself fully righteous, and lacking in God's eyes. But I still feel his love for me. Yes, I agree. I accept the loving light, because I am a loving person. Maybe a meaner person than me won't accept that part as easy. we are all molded by our experiences in life. But the truth is built into our cores, and one if day you can find it, that's great. I believe the word of God exists in the bible, yes, but I found God through studying the NT, not the OT. I never did understand the part about slavery. The web-site I gave you the link too, gives somewhat of a reasonable explanation.It talks about slavery actually being from man, not God, and that man would not a accept no slavery concept.bBut the gospel was very radical to begin with, why not say no slavery as well.I find many verses in the NT of what Jesus spoke, that would condradict slavery. Maybe he left it to us to figure out?Read the artical, it's pretty good.

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As far as the wars in the bible directly, maybe the people they were fighting were a lot worse than them, and needed to be straightened out.

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I don't know, or pretend to know.

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To casually decide that maybe an entire society deserved to be murdered, the women raped and the children taken as slaves is truly disgusting.

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When it's not against a persons will, otherwise I do not understand why.

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Do you believe that everyone has basic human rights, riverrat?Yes or no?

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You really haven't been reading what I am saying, and you are trying to make me out to be a monster.

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Did you or did you not write the following: Message #9 in this thread

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We also have no clue as to the intelligence of the slaves back then, maybe they couldn't even exist without the help of being a slave. Maybe even some people were perfectly content being a slave, who knows? It doesn't sound good to us now, since we have the ability to self sustain ourselves.

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Your argument follows quite logically that from a purely economic perspective we should allow slavery again, because there are probably more destitute people in the world now than 2000 years ago.Shouldn't those with the ability to sustain ourselves enslave those who do not? Maybe the reason people can't feed and clothe themselves today is because they aren't as intelligent as we are. And if we're really nice to them, they would probably be much happier.Isn't this your argument?

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Of course not today.

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So, you would have sold your children into slavery sometime in the past?

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Who was it that was going to kill his son because God told him too, but at the last second an angel appeared and made him stop.

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My faith isn't that deep, I wouldn't pass that test. Does that mean there is no God now?

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Thank you for your honesty.Now you have considered what it would mean to sell your own children into slavery, and have admitted that you would defy even God Himself if He commanded you to do so.It wouldn't matter how well your children were treated as slaves, you wouldn't ever want them to be enslaved, right?Slavery doesn't sound so harmless now that you are thinking about your own children, does it?So maybe now you can understand my disgust at your repeated suggestions that slavery might not have been such a terrible thing. How do you tell the difference?

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It just happened last week. My church went to MExico, to help build part of a house for some people. When they got there, some other local workers were hired to help, and the workers did not like us at first. When we showed them love, in 3 days, 6 workers gave themselves to the Lord. We were not giving those workers anything, they were not depended on us, we were just working alongside them.

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But you were giving them something.You were helping them build a house.It's not like you just went door to door.

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That's the power of love, and God.

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And free labor, and effective sales technique.

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Although I have expressed the point I was trying to make several times to you, you still are hung up on the definition of slavery, why is that?

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Because you kept using an example of figurative slavery (your employee's problems with a bad employer) to illustrate your argument defending the Bible's condoning and encouragement of literal slavery (people buying and selling other people).You kept using the two definitions interchangeably, over and over, so I just want it to be very clear that they are not at all the same.How does your employee's situation with his former employer relate at all to the rules about slavery in the Bible, anyway?Does the bible make reference to corporate insurance and liability regarding employee injury claims?

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Your so determined to go against what I say?

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Only when you are wrong and need to be corrected.

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The moral absolute is love.

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Its definment is relative to our times.

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"Moral absolutes" are behaviors or rules, not abstract concepts such as "love"."Murder always is morally wrong" is a moral absolute, for example.Is it your contention that humans define morality?

In today's world, yes. I don't know how I would feel about it, if I got into that time machine and was transported back there. Yes, a person has the right to give himself as a slave to someone else. Also if 2 people believe in slavery, and one gives his child to the other for monetary gains, and the child accepts it as a part of life, and knows this is the only way that child will survive, because they can't do it themselves, I believe they have a right to do that.I do not believe people should be slaves against their will, thats the part I have trouble with, but then again, I am not there 4000 years ago. I am not saying we should allow it now. I am saying it may have been ok for the day.What ever it is we are doing now isn't working anyway, because to many people suffer. No, thats your ignorant marrow minded take on it. Only to save their lives, and as long as they could buy their way out at some point. Yes, I defy God on a daily basis. I am not perfect. Of course I understand it. What I don't understand is you only basing your opinion on what the world is today. I can, because there is a genuine change in a person, and the Spirit confirms this. That is how God proves himself to me, by communicating with his Holy Spirit. No we weren't giving the workers anything. As a matter of fact most of us that went couldn't even speak spanish, so there was very little communication as well. But somehow love prevailed. Love does not have to be spoken, and when you do things for the glory of God, you carry with you the Spirit of God, and that Spirit can be felt by those around you.One guy came on the job on the 5th day, and said when he got there, he felt a peace that he never felt before. One of the people from our church who does speak Spanish preached a message to him, and at that moment he felt the Holy Spirit, and gave himself to Jesus. Thats the power of Love, and the power of God. Ok, so you did miss the point, and even though I explained it to you, I will explain it again.My point was, that we look at what went on then, even though we don't have all the facts as barbaric. Yes some of it was.I am saying that 2000 years from now, we will look at our current labor practices as barbaric.We cannot find God through either of these thoughts. Or when you miss my points

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quote:The moral absolute is love.

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Its definment is relative to our times.

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"Moral absolutes" are behaviors or rules, not abstract concepts such as "love".

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"Murder always is morally wrong" is a moral absolute, for example.

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Is it your contention that humans define morality?

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But the bible did not start the insitution of slavery either, nor does it actually come out and command you to have slaves.

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Yes, it does: There is also many mentions in the Biible of God using slavery as a threat or punishment for people, so that kind of blows your notions of slavery being sort of OK back then out of the water, doesn't it.

No it doesn't.
It doesn't command you to take a slave, it says it's ok.

This is clearly a list of exactly what God wants the Israelites to do when they make war against a neighboring nation.God intructs them to kill the men and enslave the women and children.God gave them these things.

This is getting pretty silly.If your child can't survive without me taking care of her, then I would adopt her, not buy her.Stop pretending that slavery is somehow a good thing. There is always a better alternative (and a more obvious one).-------------You talk a lot about "love", but you're for slavery and against gay marriage?"By their fruits ye shall know them."

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

You agree?Actions based on survival are not actions of love.Killing "for survival" is still sin.This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-16-2005 02:18 PM