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Author | Topic: SIN | |||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Why would an all-knowing god refuse to manifest himself to his flock in a way that would be sufficient to convince them?
Think of it like dancing: There are three main ways that people learn to do a specific dance step. There are those that count, those that talk, and those that feel. That is, when you're doing, say, a time step, you'll have those, in their heads, are going "One-and-a-two-and-three-and-four, one-and-a-two-and-three-and-four...." You'll then have the people who are going "Step-hop-shuffle-step-flap-ball-change, hop-shuffle-step-flap-ball-change...." So if I come along and tell you that a time-step is a slow rock forward and back followed by a fast rock forward and back on the other side, why should it be held against you? And if I am capable of figuring out how it is that you learn, why wouldn't I do what I could to present the information to you in a way that you will be able to understand? It isn't like I'm re-writing your mind to physically make you know how to do a time step. I'm simply making it easier for you to learn. So if a person is someone who learns by counting, why is it a sin when he can't understand the message presented as talking? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child writes:
quote: So why are there so few atheists who are also hedonists?
quote: Society does.
quote: Society does.
quote: No, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The rules of Monopoly are completely arbitrary and even vary from place to place. That doesn't mean they don't exist or that you if you violate them you won't be punished by the other people playing the game with you. I don't know about you, but I can't seem to recall the last time god arrested anybody and put him in jail. I can't recall the last time god served on a jury. I can't recall the last time god was elected to the bench to serve as a judge. It would appear that our entire society is based upon humans making up rules and carrying them out.
quote: Simple logic: If I wouldn't like it done to me, why would I do it to somebody else? If I make it seem as if such horrendous behaviour were socially acceptable, then it might just get revisited upon me. Therefore, I need to actually go the other way and make it socially acceptable to be nice to others. It's an extremely selfish thing to do...being nice to others so that they'll be nice to you...I know, but it works. You may recall a recent movie...A Beautiful Mind...it's about John Nash. Alas, very little was actually discussed about the mathematics he developed, but one of the results is that there is an answer to the Prisoner's Dilemma (as put forth by mathematician Albert W. Tucker): Be nice. For those who don't know, the Prisoner's Dilemma goes like this: You and a friend are picked up by the cops. In separate interrogations, you are each told the following: If neither confesses, you'll both get 2 years.If one confesses but the other doesn't, the confessor goes free while the one ratted out gets 5. If you both confess, you'll both get 4 years. How do you minimize your jail time? The answer is to play tit-for-tat. That is, whatever the other person did to you last time, you do it to him, but the first thing to do is to play nice. And over an even longer term of repeated trials, you need to be able to forgive. That is, if it appears that your partner has figured out the tit-for-tat rule, then you need to get in sync of you both playing nice rather than you being nice then the other being nice, back and forth. No god, no "higher authority" telling you what to do...just observation and selfish play.
quote: For those that think such, yes. Notice that there are some religions that feel this way, too. Your soul moves along through incarnation after incarnation until you achieve nothingness, itself. Do not confuse your unhappiness with that outcome with a universal truth.
quote: Asked and answered: It only makes sense because if everybody tries to make nice to others, then everybody wins. If everybody is a jerk, everybody loses. Since no man is an island, it behooves us all for everybody to get along.
quote: It's a social and biological response. Not everything causes a guilty response in everybody. It very much depends upon the culture in which you were raised. There is a lot of research on the biological origins of altruism and we already know that social structures will reinforce biological traits. You have yet to provide any evidence that the consciences is this "Holy Spirit" you're talking about. After all, atheists have a conscience, too, and they don't have this "Holy Spirit" of yours.
quote: Incorrect. There is nothing anywhere in evolution that says that "things are supposed to be evolving into better things." And the reason why is that there is no way to say what "better" is. It depends completely upon the environment. Tell us, which is the "better" body type: A tall, lean one that doesn't acquire body fat readily and easily radiates body heat or a short, squat one that acquires body fat readily and easily retains body heat? Wouldn't that depend upon the environment in which you live? If you were in a hot savannah, wouldn't you rather have a body that quickly radiates heat? If you were in a cold ice plain, wouldn't you rather have a body that retains heat? You can't say what "better" is without knowing the environment in which you exist. And thus, evolution says nothing about things getting "better." Instead, evolution talks about organisms "adapting to their environment." And in the end, evolution does not optimize. It is satisfied with "good enough." As the old joke goes, I don't have to be faster than the bear...I only have to be faster than you.
quote: But nobody "believes" in evolution any more than anybody "believes" in gravity. What you meant to say was: "I guess it's all about how much science you understand and comprehend." You seem to have some serious flaws in your understanding of how science works and what the theory of evolution is. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child respods to crashfrog:
quote: Assuming you're talking about the United States, they most certainly were NOT Does the First Amendment mean nothing to you? Does the Constitution mean nothing to you? In all the Constitution, religion is mentioned only twice and in both cases, it is to specifically remove religion from government.
quote: No, they did NOT. Benjamin Franklin tried to get the Constitutional Conventions opened with a prayer and he was soundly defeated. The founders of this nation were adamant about keeping religion out of government.
quote: What does "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" mean to you? What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" mean to you? You are simply in error. The US is not a Christian nation. President John Adams even signed a treaty directly stating that, the Treaty of Tripoli, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...."
quote: But what you believe is influenced by what you've been told. You probably believe that polygamy is a bad thing. Do you think you'd agree with that if you were born a few thousand years ago in the Middle East?
quote: And the thought that this is an evolved trait of our brains is anathema to you?
quote: No, you've got it all wrong. It isn't that "not every evolutionist is going to believe that things are always getting better." It's that there is nothing in evolutionary theory that says that an organism ever gets "better." The concept of "better" cannot be described until the mutation happens and gets run through the selection gauntlet to see if the new morphology is of any use. Tell us, which is the "better" morphology: A long, tall frame that doesn't acquire body fat and sheds heat quickly or a short, squat frame that accumulates body fat and retains heat. Don't you think that depends on the environment in which you find yourself? And finally, evolution is not something you "believe." Tell us, do you "believe" in gravity?
quote: Actually, every person who understands evolution must agree to this conclusion for that is the result of evolution: Adaptation to the environment.
quote: I don't think you understand what evolution is.
quote: Huh? There's no such thing as extinction? You do realize that over 90% of all species that have ever lived are extinct, yes?
quote: Of course it can. Extinction happens. The more-adapted species will crowd it out.
quote: You're forgetting about selection. It doesn't matter how many deleterious mutations come along. They get selected against leaving only the neutral and beneficial mutations to reproduce and create the next generation. And by the way, most mutations are neutral.
quote: Says who? As a species, humans are taking over the planet. There's more than six billion of us. How could that be if the "gene pool is getting worse and worse"?
quote: There are so many errors in this statement, it's hard to know where to begin. I don't know any scientist who "believes in uniformitarity." First, nothing in science is a "belief." Second, uniformitarianism is hardly a mainstream model for evolutionary behaviour. Third, the genetics of species are robust. Every single thing you stated was wrong. I don't think you know much about the biology you're critiquing. You're completely forgetting about selection. No matter how many "bad" mutations come along, they get selected against leaving only the neutral and "good" mutations. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child responds to me:
quote: Yes, there is! It's all of us playing the game. Do you really think that if you come to my house to play Monopoly with me and you cheat you're not going to get kicked out? Again, I don't recall the last time god arrested anybody, put him on trial, convicted him, and sentenced him to jail. That all seems to be carried out by humans. So it would seem that humans are the governing authority.
quote: Because humans, being descended from Adam and Eve who ate from the Tree of Knowledge and therefore are cognizant of what good and evil are, are capable of sitting in judgement on the acts of god and can tell when god does good and evil.
quote: Irrelevant. You asked about who's in charge if there is no god. The answer to that is you and me. We're in charge together. We as a society come to an agreement on how we as a society should interact and we as a society enforce those rules upon those members of the society that cannot get along with society.
quote: And that's all that you need. If it is of benefit to everybody to be nice to people, then it would behoove a society to set that as a standard and enforce it among the members of society. I'm nice to you because then you'll be nice to me. If I'm mean to you, you'll be mean to me and that's not nice.
quote: And what makes you think you'll succeed when you're pissing everybody off? You seem to forget that you're living among a very large number of people and we won't let you get away with it. And that's a very low opinion you have of yourself. You basically just said if it wasn't because god has a gun pointed to your head, you'd be a real jerk. Even though you know that you'd do better to be nice to others and encourage them to be nice to you so that everyone benefits, you'd ignore all that to "make a mad dash." Are you really that incapable of following logic?
quote: Because I'm a link in a chain. The only reason that our current society is functioning the way it is is because the previous generation was kind enough to keep it up. Therefore, to keep the functioning society going it is imperative that I hold up my end. If I want my children to enjoy the benefits of a coopertive society, then I have to show them how it works.
quote: Only if I had no sense of self-preservation. What makes you think that you can get away with it? And if I manage to convince the rest of society that "stealing everything away from those weaker than yourself" is a good way to behave, what is to keep those stronger than I from taking my stuff? There is always somebody stronger than you. And since I wouldn't want that to happen to me, I conclude that I shouldn't do it to others. It is much more beneficial to my own self interests to be nice to others so that they'll be nice to me. Think about it. Which requires more effort: Being kind or being paranoid?
quote: Incorrect. This country is not based on any religion.
quote: But those rules were created by humans. They are carried out by humans. They are maintained by humans. They are adapted by humans.
quote: Having a good life. That "mad dash for the money" you talked about? You're more likely to get it if you get help from other people and you're more likely to get that help if you give help. Of course, that's only a material concern. There are interpersonal relationships, too. If you're a jerk, you won't be very popular and you'll find yourself alone. But if you're magnanimous and friendly, you're much more likely to find love and companionship. Life is not a zero-sum game.
quote: You mean god gives up? Why would an eternal being ever give up on a temporal being? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Coragyps writes:
quote: Um, Coragyps? You do know that there is a difference between being white and being albino, yes? A white organism actually produces pigments...they just happen to be white. An albino organism doesn't produce pigment and thus the proteins are left uncolored, which is often white. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child responds to me:
quote: I cannot respond to whether your teachers were at fault or you did not heed their lessons well. The simple fact is that the religious attitudes of the founding fathers would be nothing like what we would call "Christianity" of today. A great many of them were Deists. And others were Unitarians. The predominant attutide of the time was that of the Enlightenment: The Mechanical Universe. "Providence" was the divine "first cause," but the universe tended to work all on its own after that without the direct intervention. Jefferson, for example, re-wrote the Bible...taking out all of the supernatural aspects of Jesus.
quote: That cae during the Eisenhower administration. We were talking about the founders, remember? The motto of the US before that was "E Pluribus Unum," or "Out of Many, One." That's also on a great number of the government properties...including the money. Seems they had the idea that the focus of the country was our diversity.
quote: Why not? Of course, you'll have to define what a "species" is, but why is it a species can't be created by removing traits from another? But then again, your comment is making me think that you think there is no such thing as a beneficial mutation.
quote: No. Negative mutations tend not to survive. After all, if you are less likely to reproduce than I am, your genes are less likely to be passed on than mine.
quote: There is no such thing as "greater." There is only "adapted." Which is "greater": A short, squat body that acquires fat and retains heat or a long, lean body that sheds fat and radiates heat? Wouldn't that depend upon the environment in which you find yourself?
quote: And? What about those that aren't the result of catastrophe?
quote: Why? There are more and more of us than ever before. How can the gene pool be getting worse when there are so many of us?
quote: You're talking about what would happen if the harmful mutations are there. What makes you think there are? There are over six billion humans on the planet. How could we possibly become so numerous if the gene pool were getting worse and worse?
quote: Evolution does not optimize. I don't have to be faster than the bear. I only have to be faster than you.
quote: Then how did we get over six billion individuals if there are only negative mutations? Have you considered the possibility that you don't know enough about what mutations exist to make a valid claim? For example, consider the reason why you would know about a mutation. Which do you think is going to be more likely to show up on anybody's rader: A mutation that makes a person sickly or a mutation that makes a person hardy? Do you ever stop to think about why you feel good in the morning or do you only wonder when you're not feeling well? There's a current problem going on in the sports world concerning "genetic doping." That is, one trait of endurance athletes like cyclists is that they have a higher red blood cell count than normal people. So, one way to improve endurance in athletes is to give them drugs to increase their red blood cell counts. If the counts are "too high," one could infer that the person was using drugs to artificially increase his red blood cell count. But there's a problem: There is a genetic trait whereby people naturally have an extremely high red blood cell count. The existence of a high red blood cell count is not enough to say that a person is taking drugs. It could very well be a natural occurrence. And if we ever get to the point of being able to do genetic therapy, what will that mean for athletes? If I alter my genetic structure, is that "doping" or not?
quote: Sources, please? Remember, we've got six billion people. How did we possibly get that many if the genome is getting worse and worse? If those tumors are becoming more abundant, we should see fewer and fewer people because they would be less and less able to survive to reproduce. It doesn't matter how many deformed children you have if they can't grow up to reproduce on their own.
quote: I've done the former and your latter statement is incorrect. Again, you can go to North Dakota and see the entire geologic column in a single location. It extends nearly 15,000 feet and goes all the way to the Pre-Cambrian. There are more than two dozen places on the earth where you can find the entire geologic column.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota quote: I did. That's crashfrog's response and he agrees with me (or so I think). You may not like my analogy, but you haven't shown why it isn't effective. Monopoly is a man-made game with man-made rules played by humans who enforce them. Does that not show that it is possible to have a concept of morality, justice, and ethics without the need for a god to play Grand High Pooh-Bah?
quote: Then what, pray tell, did they gain when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? And what, pray tell, is meant by Genesis 3:22 when it says "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" That seems to be a pretty direct statement: Adam and Eve are just like us: They know good and evil. Therefore, if even god recognizes that humans know what good and evil are, then why do you not accept their opinion on the subject?
quote: What does that have to do with anything? I'm not talking about the devil...I'm talking about god. God directly states that Adam and Eve are just like him and his friends up in Heaven: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
quote: Yes, it does. God said so. In fact, god is so scared of the fact that Adam and Eve now are just as competent at comprehending good and evil that they get kicked out lest they eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: "As one of us," God's Child. What do you think that means? "To know good and evil," God's Child. What do you think that means?
quote: You mean the Tree of Knowledge was a fake? It didn't provide knowledge of good and evil? God was lying to Adam and Eve when he called it the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Then why does he panic and directly state that Adam and Eve are now just like him? Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
quote: I can if god admits it. Or haven't you read Genesis 2? God finds that Adam is lonely and decides to make a helpmeet for him...but he gets it wrong. God creates animals when what Adam really needs is a woman. God admits he made a mistake in killing everybody off in the flood and promises never to do it again. And since I am just as capable of determining good and evil as god is (after all, god directly says so in Genesis 3:22), then I am capable of determining when god screws up. And god screws up when he is capable of preventing something bad from happening and doesn't.
quote: Does not that free will also apply to god? So if god through his own free will screws up, isn't that just as damning?
quote: Not quite. Everybody being nice to each other is an extremely stable state. It's the people who don't want to be nice that make things unstable.
quote:quote: If I recall correctly, it was the rules of society.
quote: Were you not paying attention? If what I want is as much joy for myself, then I must be nice to you. The way I can most likely achieve my own happiness is to help you achieve yours. And, for you to most likely achieve your own happiness, you must help me with mine. Together, we will do better than if we go it alone.
quote: Yes. Because in order for me to have the best possible world for myself, I have to buy into the system that says I leave a better world than the one I found it. If I want to be selfish and maximize my own happiness, I'm best served by taking care of the people around me and them doing the same.
quote: But why does god refuse to present information in a way that is clear to those willing to learn? If I'm trying to teach you how to do a timestep and you really wat to learn, why the insistence that you learn by counting when I know that you're a talker?
quote: BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, God's Child. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, God's Child has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, God's Child gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you? If god knows how I learn, why does he refuse to adapt his message to my abilities? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child writes:
quote: Correct. The serpent shows up in Genesis 3.
quote: Incorrect. Here is what the serpent said: Genesis 3:4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And let's see what happens...when Adam and Eve eat from the tree, they don't die. Therefore, we've got one thing for which the serpent told the truth and god didn't. And when Adam and Eve eat from the tree, god panics and directly states that Adam and Eve have become as gods, knowing good and evil: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: And when Adam and Eve eat from the tree, their eyes open: Genesis 3:7: And the eyes of them both were opened So it would appear that everything the serpent said was right: If Adam and Eve were to eat from the tree, they wouldn't die, their eyes would be open, and they would become as gods, knowing good from evil.
quote: The serpent was not Satan. If that were so, why did god curse the serpent as if it were an animal? Genesis 3:14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
quote: And that's precisely what happened. She didn't die and she became as god, knowing good and evil. Even god says so: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
quote: According to god, yes: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
quote: Only because we haven't eaten from the Tree of Life. Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
quote: Logical error: Equivocation. The statement of god was not that Adam and Eve would not ever die. After all, god directly states that all they need to do is eat from the Tree of Life and they will live forever: Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore, Adam and Eve were going to die anyway. Instead, the statement of god was that on the day that Adam or Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, they would die: Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Now, I know that some Christians have a problem with the concept of a day, thinking that six days can somehow equal 15 billion years, but we're talking about Adam. Surely he knows what a "day" is. The statement is a direct claim that on the very day that he eats from the Tree of Knowledge, he will die. But instead, he dies over 800 years later. Now, everybody knew that he was going to die. God directly said so since the thing that would make them live forever is eating from the Tree of Life. They were not immortal before as they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life. So it would seem that everything god said was false and everything the serpent said was true: They didn't die, their eyes were opened, and they became as gods, knowing good from evil. This fuels a suggestion I often make to those who flirt with Pascal's Wager: Have you considered the possibility that god is the devil and the devil is god? After all, wouldn't that be a fantastic trick? To convince poor, innocent humans to swear obeisance to the embodiment of evil? That the book they are so attached to is actually backwards? I mean, there are so many hints in it: This god fellow lies, cheats, kills, and then tells everybody not to do it themselves. Nothing this god character says comes true.
quote: It works forever if everybody plays along. It's only those people who think they can do better that screw things up.
quote: BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, God's Child. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, God's Child has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, God's Child gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?
quote: But if he knows that there are some people who cannot do that, why is it their fault? If I am trying to teach you how to do a timestep and you really want to learn, why should you be forced to be taught from counts when the way you learn is by talking...and especially if the teacher knows that and can teach by talking? Why should you be forced to think "One-and-a-two-and-three-and-four" which you will never really understand when all that needs to be done is for you to be told, "Hop-shuffle-step-flap-ball-change"?
quote: You know the mind of god that well? I don't seem to recall anywhere in the Bible it says that. Perhaps you could quote me the scripture. But then again, have you considered the possibility that the Bible has it backwards? Have you considered the possibility that the Bible is actually a test? That god wants to see who is going to take advantage of that brain and intelligence he gave them and try to figure things out through logic, experimentation, and experience and who will simply blindly follow what a book tells them to think? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child responds to me:
quote: Um...Genesis wasn't originally written in Greek. We're talking about Genesis 3, so it would appear we should be talking about the Hebrew. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child responds to me:
quote: We learn something new every day.
quote: Who?
quote: And all of them came about through mutation. We've seen it happen right in front of our eyes. I've described experiments that you, personally, can do in your own bio lab. In fact, it's often done in high school biology to show that mutation actually happens and provides benefit to the organisms. So why is there some sort of denial that it can happen? Who are you going to believe: Your own eyes or someone who tells you it can't happen?
quote: But it has nothing to do with the fact that they are siblings or cousins. That is, the fact that siblings or cousins have children does not cause genetic mutations. It isn't as if the sperm and the egg have little tags on them saying, "I'm your brother!" so that they'll know to be extra mutagenic upon conception. Instead, the reason why we often see genetic problems in the offspring of closely related individuals is because they will often share the same recessive traits. Suppose a woman is heterozygous for brown eyes. Thus, she has brown eyes, but she has a single copy of a gene for blue eyes. She can only pass on one copy of this gene to her offspring. Suppose the father of her children is homozygous for brown eyes. Thus, he has brown eyes and only has genes for brown eyes. Therefore, there's a 50-50 chance that the children of these two people will be heterozygous for blue eyes, just like their mother. If these children then have children, it is possible that one of them might turn up with blue eyes. The fact that it is siblings having children does not create the blue-eyed gene. It is the fact that they are descended from someone who had a blue-eyed gene that makes it more likely. Since they both trace their genetic ancestry to the same source, it is more likely that they will share genetic traits than unrelated people.
quote: But not because of the nature of their relationship but because with distance from the shared genetic source comes greater genetic variety. Incest doesn't create mutations. It makes those common traits that do exist more commonly expressed.
quote: Surely after six billion individuals, this would be apparent, wouldn't it? And yet, there are more people living longer and longer lives than ever before. How could this be if the gene pool were getting worse?
quote: Yes, it does. Genetic effects should have shown up by now if the mutations are getting worse. Every generation produces mutations. On average, every human being has 3 to 6 compared to his parents. There are only about three billion base-pairs in the human genome. If the gene pool were getting worse and worse, then we should see something indicating that on the way to six billion people.
quote: Incorrect. That's actually the way to win the game. All other strategies fail over the long run. The only way to achieve stability is for everyone to cooperate. Until you reach that point, the strategy to win is to do unto others as they do unto you, but don't be the first to get nasty and be prepared to forgive.
quote: But, he does notice that somebody has stolen his sandwich. Even if he doesn't know that it's you, it means he knows that somebody out there is working against him. Thus, he loses his trust in others and he will be on the lookout for a sandwich of his own, possibly stealing it from someone else...say you, since you have two. You're confusing a single instance with a long-term strategy. Yes, for any single instance, you might be able to get away with it and come out even further ahead. But chances are, you won't be able to keep up that lucky streak for very long. Therefore, you will need to develop a better strategy for maintaining your position knowing that you cannot take advantage of everyone.
quote: The fact that he cries out, "Who took my sandwich?!" and then everybody starts casting about looking for the thief. They all drop their trust, even if only a little bit, because they know that there is a traitor in their midst. And since the strategy is to do unto others as they do unto you and we have an instance of somebody defecting, we are going to have a run of defections as people seek to find out who the uncooperative person is. Again, a single instance might allow you to get ahead more by defection than cooperation, but that is a poor long-term strategy.
quote: I already explained this to you: The only reason I have the benefits I have is because the previous generations were in a position to give it to me. Therefore, I need to continue to play the game in order to maximize my own outcome by being cooperative, which necessarily puts those I leave behind in a better place. The most likely way for me to achieve my goals is for me to help you achieve yours...right up to the very end. It isn't that I'm thinking about the future. I am thinking only for myself. But in order to make sure that my selfish goals are achieved, it means I have to behave in such a way that your goals get achieved and leave a world that is better off than what I found. A rising tide lifts all boats.
quote: Why not? Why can't it, too, be an evolved trait?
quote: What does god have to do with it? The laws of the United States have nothing to do with god.
quote: Prurient interest. A more stable society is one in which people aren't obsessed about sexuality. Therefore, it is beneficial to society to reduce the amount of friction (oy!) in the public spaces. You are perfectly free to go about naked in your own domicile. You can even wear as little as you can get away with in public. There was a guy in Albuquerque where I used to live who was very much the nudist and, indeed, wore as little as he could legally get away with in public. He made the accession in the public square so that he could have a stable society, even though he may disagree with the rest of society, in exchange for having the freedom to do as he pleased in his private home. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
God's Child writes:
quote: Incorrect. The "mad dash for money" was your goal, GC, not mine:
Message 38 God's Child writes: If I didn't believe in an afterlife and consequence after life then I'd make a mad dash for money when I'm young and slowly live my life away in pleasure not at the mercy of anyone. The fact that I showed you that this attitude still requires a "go along to get along" strategy does not mean that my goal is money. You were the one that brought it up, GC, not me. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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