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Author Topic:   The location of the Tree of Life
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 271 of 302 (219681)
06-26-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
06-25-2005 6:51 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
quote:Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:22-23)
I hope you don't mind me quoting the whole sentence to get the context.
It says that we purify our souls by loving one another. There is nothing there that remotely, by any stretch of the imagination, says anything about a spirit that is "not born yet". How can something be "born again" if it has not been born yet?
Well this is where I can see your comprehension trouble. In your statement "how can something be born again if it isn't born yet" you fail to realize that the bible verse you quoted, says exactly that.
The first time we are born, it is a physical birth, of perishable seed. It is our body’s, that which goes back to the earth/dust.
The second time we are born, it is of imperishable seed, our spirit, eternal life. It is a completely different birth, of different seed, but we experience both of them, so we are born twice, but the 2 are very different from each other.
The bible mentions many times that our beings have several aspects or forms to it. there is the mind, the body, the heart, the soul, and then there is the spirit. The spirit is that which we are all a part of, and it is from God. We are born with the spirit inside us, but its like a phone that doesn't ring. We have to pick it up and call God, then he starts calling us back, and communicating with us. But ultimately. it is God that decides when your spirit will be born. He will give you that experience when you are ready for it.
Just curious, how to you know how many people are watching this thread in particular? In the box at the top of the page?
I keep asking you and I don't get an answer: Do you think we "learn" God's spirit? That's what you seem to be saying.
I don't know, I had to, kind of.
I heard a story, I do not know if it is true, but Helen Keller, once she started communicating with people, was asked, do you know who Jesus Christ is? She responded, oh, that’s his name.
I suppose you know that the phrase "born again" occurs only about three times in the whole Bible (one reason why I don't like it's overuse by "fundies"). So it's not surprizing that none of them actually spells it out.
I think appears more than that. the phrase be like a child appears less, and is it not in the same context of being born again. To be born again is to be born of God.
Here:
quote:
1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1 John 4:7
[ God's Love and Ours ] Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Galatians 4:29
At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
John 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [ The Greek is plural.] must be born again.'
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
John 3:4
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.
John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, [ Greek of bloods] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
What do they mean by all that???
Pretty bloody obvious to me what is said, but not so obvious what it means.
I am not going to debate the rest of what you said, because we would be beating a dead horse. I backed up everything that I said, and the I spoke the words into existence. I now have faith that God will do the rest. I speak the words with love.
Well its off to church, have a great Sunday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 06-25-2005 6:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 12:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 272 of 302 (219715)
06-26-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by riVeRraT
06-26-2005 7:55 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
The first time we are born, it is a physical birth, of perishable seed. It is our body’s, that which goes back to the earth/dust.
The second time we are born, it is of imperishable seed, our spirit, eternal life. It is a completely different birth, of different seed, but we experience both of them, so we are born twice, but the 2 are very different from each other.
But that's the very thing that we're debating. All you're doing is asserting that you win.
I am saying that God breathes His spirit into us when we are born. As we grow older, that spirit diminishes - especially if we are weighed down by dogma. That is why our first birth is "corruptible".
But we can get that spirit back by being "born again" - i.e becoming like children. The second birth is a spiritual rebirth. It is not a birth in the sense that we re-enter our mother's womb. It is symbolic, which is why it is "incorruptible".
We are born with the spirit inside us, but its like a phone that doesn't ring. We have to pick it up and call God, then he starts calling us back, and communicating with us.
Again, you are just asserting. Where in the Bible do you find evidence of this "wake-up call" from God?
But ultimately. it is God that decides when your spirit will be born.
Chapter and verse?
Just curious, how to you know how many people are watching this thread in particular? In the box at the top of the page?
That box doesn't tell me anything about this thread in particular. That's the "potential audience". Maybe all of them will read this. Maybe none of them will.
I base my posts on the possibility that they all will, and that some of them will probably understand the subject better than I do.
Which is why I try not to say "I already answered that", etc.
I suppose you know that the phrase "born again" occurs only about three times in the whole Bible
I think appears more than that.
I was refering only to the exact phrase "born again". I didn't have time to look up every possible permutation. Also, I was refering only to the King James Version. It is possible that other versions "massage" other phrases to "born again". Are you using the New Improved Version?
the phrase be like a child appears less, and is it not in the same context of being born again.
Again, that is what we are discussing. Just proclaiming victory doesn't make it so.
I have said that being "born again" is exactly the same context as being "like a child".
Why do you think Jesus chose a child for his comparison? He could just as easily have said, "You must be like a pie plate to enter into heaven." I'm saying that He chose a child because He wants us to be like children.
Why do you think the phrase "born again" is used in the Bible? It could just as easily say, "You must eat a whole pie to enter into heaven."
I'm saying that the two phrases - "be like a child" and "born again" - are used because the parallel is so obvious.
You have not shown why the obvious parallel should be ignored.
quote:
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
I thought you said that the people in the church were targeted more by Satan. And are you saying that they literally do not continue to sin?
quote:
for everyone born of God overcomes the world.
Are you saying that they literally overcome the world?
quote:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin
Literally?
The phrase "born of God" clearly describes an idealized situation, not a real one. It is a condition we aspire to, not one we really experience.
And exactly where does the Bible say that "born of God" and "born again" are the same thing?
Finally, here's the kicker:
quote:
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)
Do children love? Then, according to your own quote, they are born of god and they know God.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 7:55 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 4:23 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 273 of 302 (219768)
06-26-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by ringo
06-26-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
especially if we are weighed down by dogma. That is why our first birth is "corruptible".
Or if we create our own.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Again, you are just asserting. Where in the Bible do you find evidence of this "wake-up call" from God?
quote:
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1 Corinthians 1:26
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
John 15:15-17
15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitfruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Romans 9:15-17
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Did you forget before, that you pointed out to me, that coming to know God is not just a human effort?
Chapter and verse?
I am sick of you asking for a chapter and verse. You do not refer to chapter and verses, but live by your own opinion, so what good is it to post a chapter and verse? You'll just turn it around to suite your own needs and wants anyway.
I was praying about you yesterday, and I got the impression based on our conversation, that you used to go to church, and subscribe to the dogma, or try to see its relevance, but decided it was all a scam, so you invented your own way of believing in God. Too bad, because then the truth is hid from you. Your belief is based on only partial truths. You have created your own dogma.
Sometimes the dogma isn't dogma, but the truth. It doesn't take much to corrupt this. It was said once, that it takes 7 truths to cover up one lie. That is the power of a lie.
Are we the only species on this planet that lie?
What does that mean?
How tough it is to just love one another.
Just proclaiming victory doesn't make it so.
It is not about victory, I am not in competition with you.
In order for me to win, you would have to win also, and we would celebrate together.
Why do you think Jesus chose a child for his comparison? He could just as easily have said, "You must be like a pie plate to enter into heaven." I'm saying that He chose a child because He wants us to be like children.
??? Being like a child is only part of the requirement to get into heaven. There are many more qualities, and obstacles to over come before you can become born again, or enter heaven.
quote:
Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [ Some manuscripts to. 14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.]

I'm saying that the two phrases - "be like a child" and "born again" - are used because the parallel is so obvious.
It's not so obvious. The obvious way of thinking would be to say, your are born first, then become a child.
I wish you would just admit that being like a child, does not make you born again.
I know many people who act like children. They are not Christ like at all.
quote:We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
I thought you said that the people in the church were targeted more by Satan. And are you saying that they literally do not continue to sin?
It is impossible to stop sinning. Or nearly impossible, was there 3 people in the whole history of the world that are sin free?
You are assuming that all people who go to church are born of God. that’s pretty judgmental. But that’s what people who are looking for God expect to find in the church. They really should clear that up when you walk in the door.
My pastor says we should have a sign over the door saying "now entering the church of Jesus", and the sign should be placed so you read it on the way out.
However, God does protect us when we trust in him to do so. Being saved is a continuing process. The minute we stop acting Christ like, are we still saved? I think not. The bible says this:
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
The moment you do not have, or act like you have the spirit of Christ in you, your out of context
How do we act like Christ?
Simple, it must follow these 2 guide lines, if it misses either one, your out.
Love God
Love others
If you experienced anything short of that in the church, then you know the deal. You also have the gift to recognize this, and I feel the Lord wants you to do something about it.
quote:for everyone born of God overcomes the world.
Are you saying that they literally overcome the world?
Yes. The world meaning things of this world, and things created by this world, and not of God.
A lie is not from God. Sure, sure God create us, and gave us the ability to lie, but is he liable for it? That what this world is coming to, everyone is liable except the person who did it. That is the goal that the devil is working for, because maybe one day, we are going to put God on trial, and blame him for everything that we don't like. Crap, that happens right here on these forums.
But it is hypocritical of people to do that. They take the free will given to them by God, and choose to blame it on him. If we didn't have free will, I don't think we would even be alive. We'd be like a tree or a rock or something. (yes I know trees live)
Nobody wants to be responsible for their actions.
So world has nothing on us, when we are children of God.
quote:Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)
Do children love? Then, according to your own quote, they are born of god and they know God.
And now the full speech, and the moral of that statement. You are only partially right.
quote:
God's Love and Ours
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Let me ask you a question, and I expect an answer. Do you know what true love is?
Would you kill your son for God?
Would you send your son to die for others?
Does a child know what this is?
They have a clue, but they are immature in knowing what love is all about.
I will tell you, I do not fully comprehend what true love is. The more I learn, the less I know. Just when I think I know, I don't. Love has a way of just getting deeper, and deeper, just like knowing and seeking God. Because God is love.
I wish I knew what love like that is. The bible says when we meet Jesus face to face, we will have an instant understanding of that love.
In fact the more evil we experience, the more we will appreciate that love, and understand it. That is why it was our destiny to eat of the tree.
I have seen awesome glimpses of what the power of love can do. Love can conquer all, it is the greatest force on this planet.
God is love.
Does a tree know that? I bet it does.
*edit*
My spelling sucks. I used to be even worse
At least I am improving.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-26-2005 04:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 12:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 7:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 274 of 302 (219790)
06-26-2005 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by riVeRraT
06-26-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
Good post.
You make some good points. It would take a lot of posts for me to twist that all around, as you claim I do. But we don't have a lot of posts left in this thread, so I'll leave my beloved peanut gallery to draw their own conclusions.
riVeRraT writes:
I am sick of you asking for a chapter and verse.
And yet you are getting better at providing them. No need to thank me.
I got the impression based on our conversation, that you used to go to church....
Sonny, I've been to more churches than you've had hot dinners. As I've said before, I heard everything you're saying before I could read.
I'm not basing what I think on ignorance.
In order for me to win, you would have to win also, and we would celebrate together.
I'll put in a good word for you at the Pearly Gates, but I can't make any promises.
I wish you would just admit that being like a child, does not make you born again.
Nope. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.
(Do you think wishing is going to change anybody's mind if your arguments don't?)
I know many people who act like children. They are not Christ like at all.
Don't you know the difference between "childlike" and "childish"? It's kind of like the difference between being a Christian and just saying you're a Christian.
You are assuming that all people who go to church are born of God.
Where have you been? It's not so very many posts back that I said you are unlikely to find God in a church. People who go to church are "born of God" only in the sense that we all are born of God.
My pastor says we should have a sign over the door saying "now entering the church of Jesus", and the sign should be placed so you read it on the way out.
I agree completely and I said so some ways back.
I'm having little T-shirts made for the ducks in the park - that read "King's Kid".
How do we act like Christ?
Simple, it must follow these 2 guide lines, if it misses either one, your out.
Love God
Love others
See? You are capable of seeing the blindingly obvious. Now try applying that to all of your Bible reading.
Let me ask you a question, and I expect an answer. Do you know what true love is?
Yes.
Would you kill your son for God?
Of course not.
Would you send your son to die for others?
No. But if he chose to go, he'd have my blessing.
Does a child know what this is?
Killing your son for God is not love. Sending your son to die for others is not love. So I don't see what it has to do with a child understanding love.
The more I learn, the less I know. Just when I think I know, I don't.
Keep that thought. In a few decades, when you've been where I've been, maybe you'll see the light. No need to apologize.
Does a tree know that? I bet it does.
I've spoken to a few trees in my time, but they seldom answer.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 4:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 10:12 PM ringo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 275 of 302 (219799)
06-26-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
06-22-2005 12:45 AM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Ringo316 writes:
Thanks for the English-to-fundy translation.
Uh...I'm the one saying that Genesis probably uses allegorical and poetic language to described things that are most likely not to be taken literally. I'm also trying to explain that the Scriptures are using mostly symbolic language when describing the fall of man.
Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, accept the account of scripture as being literally true. The fundamentalist phenomenon has especially come to refer to any religious enclave that intentionally resists identification with the larger religious group in which it originally arose, on the basis that fundamental principles upon which the larger religious group is supposedly founded have become corrupt or displaced by alternative principles hostile to its identity.
Who's acting like a fundy, Ringo316?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 06-22-2005 12:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 11:20 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 276 of 302 (219804)
06-26-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by arachnophilia
06-22-2005 2:54 AM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Care to debate these ideas in a formal debating area?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 2:54 AM arachnophilia has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 277 of 302 (219822)
06-26-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
06-26-2005 7:15 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
How old are you?
Have you had what you condider to be a baptism in the Holy Spirit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 7:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 11:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 278 of 302 (219856)
06-26-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-26-2005 8:04 PM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Who's acting like a fundy, Ringo316?
Thanks for using my full name. You can call me Ringo or Mr. 316 if you wish.
Yes, I use the word "fundy" in the more colloquial sense that most people use - i.e. somebody who hates gays, blathers YECreationism, etc.
Specifically, in your case, I meant it in reference to the fact that you made up your mind about what I said with little reference to what I actually said. No offense intended.
By the way, this little smilie - - means "don't take this toooo seriously".

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-26-2005 8:04 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-27-2005 8:01 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 279 of 302 (219859)
06-26-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by riVeRraT
06-26-2005 10:12 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRrat writes:
How old are you?
If I remember your biographical details correctly - older than you.
Have you had what you condider to be a baptism in the Holy Spirit?
I don't like the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit".

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by riVeRraT, posted 06-26-2005 10:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2005 8:09 AM ringo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 280 of 302 (219960)
06-27-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
06-26-2005 11:20 PM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Ringo316 writes:
Specifically, in your case, I meant it in reference to the fact that you made up your mind about what I said with little reference to what I actually said.
But I hadn't made up my mind with "little reference" to what you had actually said. I clicked on some of your past posts here to get some feedback before making that conclusion.
To me, this link here seems to describe you rather well...
http://www.deist.info/deistprimer.htm
Deism writes:
Maybe you have heard or read the word Deism, and wondered what it meant. Deism, is a word that comes from the Latin word Deus that means God. So, Deism means a belief in God. Deism has come to mean a religion or classification of believing in God, through reason and nature. Because the people who follow Deism, Deists, believe that they can best understand God through reason and nature. They refuse to accept what are called revealed religions. They also believe in the equality of all humans.
Let’s think about what this all means. A Deist is someone who believes in God, because they have reasoned by studying nature that there is a God. But, Deists do not believe that the revealed religions truly teach us about God. So, what does this all mean?
The word reason to a Deist, means to think about things objectively. That means to recognize how your emotions are causing you to think about things. So, that you are not letting your prejudices cause errors in the way you are thinking. A Deist also recognizes that just because we like the person telling us something, what they are telling us might still be a mistake. These are some of the things that are needed for what is called objective thinking. Most Deist will also try to use good logic when thinking. For something to be logical, it must be able to be proved like two plus two equals four. And it has to have an order to it, like the alphabet having B follow A. Thinking this way can be a difficult thing to do. But, many find it to be challenging and fun. It also helps us to better understand ourselves.
What Deists mean by studying nature as a way to understand God, is that they can learn about how natural things work. This way they can see how God makes things work. This helps the Deist to understand God, by understanding how God does things. By the word nature, Deist mean everything in the universe. Not just animals and plants, but the planets, stars, and even the atoms. Science is often called the study of nature. So, Deists generally do not agree with ideas that conflict with what science has shown us. This does not mean that Deists worship nature. Deists just use nature to better understand God.Revealed religions, are religions that are based on other peoples’ revelations. A religious revelation is when God sends an angel, talks or shows someone directly, what God wants humans to do. People who follow a revealed religion, believe that someone else has gotten a revelation from God, so they follow that person’s words. So a revealed religion is a religion based on someone else’s revelation. Deists believe that someone cannot share a revelation with anyone else, without it getting all messed up. This is because words have a nasty habit of meaning different things to different people and all too often are rearranged to mean other things too. Because Deism doesn’t rely on others’ revelations, it is called a natural religion.
Deists also believe that to God, all people are equal. Because of this belief, Deists don’t think that there are special people who know God’s will better than any of the rest of us. What Deists do believe, is that all of us can learn about God through God’s work, otherwise known as nature. And since we all have the ability to learn about nature, and thus God, then no one person is more special than another to God. This means that Deists respect other peoples’ opinions. We may not agree with the other person’s opinions, but Deist do believe in being tolerant of them. Of course, this tolerance does not extend to people who would harm others, so that their ideas will be accepted. Deists will often even seek out differing opinions, so that they may learn new ways of thinking about things. Deists will think for themselves, rather an idea has merit or not.
Some people ask, If Deists don’t get anything special from God, why be a Deist? The usual reason that people become Deists, is that they have used their own reasoning to decide that Deism is the religion that best describes their own ideas. Many Deists find other things that make the religion attractive as well. For instance, there is no one telling a Deist how to think. Fellow Deists just tell other Deists to learn to think for themselves. Many Deists also find that Deism helps them to get rid of silly feelings of guilt about things that they had nothing to do with. That also makes them feel better about themselves. And a Deist can worship God in their own way, without fear of persecution from other Deists.
People also ask, Do Deists have a moral code? The answer is yes and no. Deism teaches that because of all of the wonderful things that God has given us, we should try to help others. As God helps us, we should help others and not harm them. But, Deism doesn’t have a bunch of rules to follow. Deism teaches us to use our own reasoning and ability to use logic to decide for ourselves if something is right or wrong.
People also ask, How do Deists practice their religion? One thing all practicing Deists do is think for themselves. That is, a Deist will think about everything. Even if there is a God or not. Most practicing Deists will also give prayers of thanks to God. Although, individual Deists will do this in different ways. Deists don’t believe in begging God for things, as they know that God knows what they need. Deists also know that it is up to us humans to make the world a better place to live. So, they try to make the world better by helping others...
Like I said above, the information in this link seems to describe your views rather well...
http://www.deist.info/deistprimer.htm
Ringo316 writes:
By the way, this little smilie - - means "don't take this toooo seriously".
Yeah...but...when you're talking about people's beliefs, you're bound to tread on someone's toes if you get too flippant about their ideas. I see this a lot where someone asks questions about religion only to then poke fun at the answers that are given. It usually means the person doesn't really care -- or that they obviously don't take the discussion that seriously.
I really try to avoid the sarcasm unless the person is invoking a "holier than thou" attitude -- and only then will I give tit for tat back at them. Even then, it's not to belittle them or their ideas. It's to demonstrate (or reflect) their own attitude back at them in the hope that they realize that the way they are expessing their ideas is generally lacking.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-27-2005 08:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 11:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 2:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 281 of 302 (219962)
06-27-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
06-26-2005 11:23 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
You realize that when you said:
quote:
Don't you know the difference between "childlike" and "childish"? It's kind of like the difference between being a Christian and just saying you're a Christian.
That you started to define the phrase "be like a child".
So obviously Jesus meant something more specific than "be like a child", you just won't admit it.
I don't like the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit".
Hey, it is what it is. You seem to have a lot of trouble with many things. You don't seem "free" to me. When we hate things, we lock ourselves in our own little prison.
That's why forgiving sets you free. You probably have trouble with that phrase, because it may refer you to a specific group of people whom you hold a grudge against. That is a burden on your back, not the dogmatic fundy gay bashers.
(Be for warned, people will call me a gay basher, because I am not for same sex marriage. But that’s it, I do not hate gay people, I have a lot of gay friends and family, and we talk about it all the time. I would be for civil rights for them.)
Being set free more resembles "getting back to the garden" than dying and going to heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 06-26-2005 11:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 3:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 282 of 302 (219963)
06-27-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by riVeRraT
06-20-2005 10:33 PM


Re: Where is it?
I think its going to have to be the best answer in 20 pages of replies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2005 10:33 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 283 of 302 (219967)
06-27-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by arachnophilia
06-22-2005 1:29 AM


Re: let's just change what the bible says.
Like I said above, let's bring this over to the formal debate area and engage in an authentic debate which is moderated by the administrators. I would like to discuss this further as the Spirit leads.
You are maintaining the literalness of many things you've pointed out in order to force your conclusion. For example, you cite passages which claim that God made evil in order to conclude that God's hands were responsible for them. I maintain the Scriptures are describing God "making" these evil events happen in metaphorical language, just like the psalm says as follows:
NIV writes:
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Certainly God is not "directly" making people in the womb. His hands are not "literally" weaving children in their mother's wombs. However, many would say that God set in motion the basic principles that continue to bring forth life -- and that he observes their development and guides it in order to bring about the maximum good. This is to say, God's actions work at a distance in order to bring about his will, even though he is not directly forcing it to happen in a literal sense.
The same can be said for the nature of the law. For example:
NIV writes:
Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.
Deuteronomy 27:26
It seems to me that all people have apparently failed to do everything written in the Book of the Law -- and in this sense, because it cannot be maintained by anyone, the Law ends up being a curse. It's not a curse because God made it a curse. It becomes a curse because hmanity cannot live up to its standards. This is to say, humanity's inability to achieve God's desired goals created the accursed nature of the Law.
Anyway, if you want to discuss this further, then let me know when you will be willing to formally debate it. I welcome the chance to discuss this further as the Spirit allows.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-27-2005 09:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 06-22-2005 1:29 AM arachnophilia has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 284 of 302 (220077)
06-27-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-27-2005 8:01 AM


Re: General reply for all to consider
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
... when you're talking about people's beliefs, you're bound to tread on someone's toes if you get too flippant about their ideas.
I is what I is. If I'm too "flippant" for you, maybe you should talk to somebody else who measures up to your standards better.
This is the Faith and Belief forum, after all, and I am entitled to express my beliefs. If your toes are that sensitive, again, maybe you should talk to somebody else.
It usually means the person doesn't really care....
It's statements like that that make me question your mind-reading ability.
... or that they obviously don't take the discussion that seriously.
The smilies might have been a clue that I don't take the discussion as a matter of life or death.
I really try to avoid the sarcasm unless the person is invoking a "holier than thou" attitude -- and only then will I give tit for tat back at them.
Maybe don't try to give "tit for tat" unless you're capable. Go with your strength.
It's to demonstrate (or reflect) their own attitude back at them in the hope that they realize that the way they are expessing their ideas is generally lacking.
I have stated more than once that I'm not really speaking to the other debater at all, but to the audience. I'm reflecting the debater's own attitude back at him in the hope that the audience realizes....

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-27-2005 8:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-27-2005 7:20 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 285 of 302 (220095)
06-27-2005 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by riVeRraT
06-27-2005 8:09 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
So obviously Jesus meant something more specific than "be like a child"....
He didn't say "childish". He said "like a child" = "childlike". Why try to read "something more specific" into that?
I don't like the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit".
You probably have trouble with that phrase, because it may refer you to a specific group of people whom you hold a grudge against.
Far from it. I don't like the term because people parrot it in the same way that they parrot "born again", without understanding what it means.
... people will call me a gay basher, because I am not for same sex marriage.
You're right, I probably would.
I do not hate gay people....
Jesus said, "Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself." Loving thy neighbour does not include telling him that he can't marry the person of his choice. I'm sorry, but being against same sex marriage is a form of hate.
I would be for civil rights for them.
Mighty white of you.
Since when does "civil rights" not include the right to marry the person of your choice, regardless of race, etc?
(I know this is way off-topic, but it demonstrates where the whole fundy-dogma/"spiritual death" thing takes people.)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2005 8:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2005 4:00 PM ringo has replied

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