The concept of faith

I think its far simpler than that RR. The general principle could be laid out like this (I'll sum up later but see if you can spot the undertow of what is happening throughout - hint: its not about a form of words)A person has to accept that they are morally bankrupt before a wholly Holy God. If "God if you are there" is the very limit of what their heart will permit them to accept of his existance then that will do. "If you are there then I accept I am morally bankrupt before you" is still a total admission of moral bankrupcy - for he is there.A person needs to ask for his forgiveness for making themselves (over who he has ultimate ownership) morally bankrupt. Asking forgiveness confirms that the person indeed accepts themselves to be morally bankrupt and in need of forgiveness.A person has to accept that their salvation comes from God and not by any other means. No loopholes, no more self-dependancy, "nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling". Total reliance on God. At his mercy. "If you exist then I need you to save me from me meeting you in the bankrupt condition I acknowledge before you"A person needs to thank God for offering to save them. "If you exist then I thank you for your offer and I accept it with thanks". Thanking him before one knows one has been saved underscores throwing oneself on his mercy alone. An expression of total faith. A puppy laying on its back: totally vunerable, pride (self-dependance) laid aside, totally at the mercy of an owner who has every right to kick it but who says he won't. And thanking him before you get to know that he won't.Did you spot the essence Robin? Can you see the death of a man here? A man pulling the trigger of a gun pointed at his head. Death of self-sufficiency? Death of doing deals? Death of "on my terms"? Death of NO EVIDENCE!?Death, in short of Pride. Pride in his own ability. Death of a self-made man.Its not about the form of words, its not about believing all the doctrine. Its about a heart response to Gods bringing of you to see your state. Whatever form of words you use, if you pull the trigger on your pride and independnace then die you will. And rise you will.Because he says thats what will happen. It takes guts to trust someone you don't know simply because he says to trust him.And if a person knows in their heart that before him (if he exists) they have confessed him and handed themselves over to his mercy and in so doing sacrificed their pride then saved they are. They may return to intellectualising it away afterwards (until he confirms it for them) but no matter - if they know what they did came from the bottom of their heart (for thats what it would take to do it) they cannot ever unknow it.Neither can He.This message has been edited by iano, 12-May-2006 07:12 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 12-May-2006 07:19 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 12-May-2006 07:37 PM

You seem to read things with the mindset "It seems Christianity requires me to believe various things when I have no way of being able to believe something I have no evidence for. I can't blindly believe that (insert x doctrine here) is the case" No wonder it seems complex.If you've heard it once though, you've heard it a thousand times. God is the one who saves. He is the one who provides the evidence for you which enables you to believe all these things. In that case it is not difficult at all.If you are to be saved then two things must happen.1. God must present compelling (although indirect) evidence of the fact that all the roads a person has followed in attempt to buttress their own independance and pursuit of happiness, have not in fact resulted in that goal being achieved. Masks only. He must show them that for all their attempts at self-fulfillment, they have not filled the desire that all this stuff is aimed at filling. A person is 'nearer' if they at least see this about themselves. Many deny that there is a void in their life at all. If a person DOES arrive at this point then it wasn't them that brings that revelation about their position. He is showing them that this stuff doesn't cut it. He is holding up the reality of their lives for their evaluation. .2. A person must not deny (past the point of no return) the conclusion that would be drawn from this evidence. One can of course shake off the notions that would hint at this conclusion and continue to attempt to fill the void with 'stuff'. We are afterall, free to deny and ignore the evidence. To not face it. To turn away from it.It can take many years of denial to get to the point of really seeing ourselves as we are, to submit to the facts about ourselves, living like the man in Romans 7 (without any reference to God prior to the point of conversion which Romans 7 deal with). But at some point we will be faced with "Why do I keep doing the things that I don't want to do??" Hopefully at some point a man finally accepts that he has tried and tried and tried ...but failed...and sees that he will always fail if he keeps on going.Hopefully he doesn't do a Howard Hughes and grinds, in time, to a halt at a place where God is the only one left. It is natural to suppose that this is an appalling way to arrive ("God - I'm trying you last, not because I think you exist, not that I respect you, not that I even want to believe you. But because you're the last option of all the options").Fortunately God isn't like us. He is not proud. He will always welcome a prodigal son. Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

From my own experience there was an element of the moral to my conversion. I had gone my own way and it was the failure of these ways to fill a void which brought me to my knees. I could see and admit that I had the morals of an alley cat. But having good morals alone wouldn't have filled the void. I don't see how one could ever deduce it. One (on your side of the fence) could never reason that out - due to lack of certainty that God exists - which as you say is a requirement in order for morals to exist objectively. Without knowig God exists, morals can never known to be objective. Deduction will only result in going in circlesNo. For a man to be saved God must first part the seas around a persons self-justification of their wrong-doing and let them see themselves as they are. And they must come to a decision about themselves: either it is objective or subjective. They can sit on the fence and dither until the day they die.Its plain old honest-to-goodness decision-making - not hiding in the mists of procrastination which simply kicks the decision into touch. "I was deducing.." is a dodge for the reason I gave: one cannot deduce the undeducable.If you wanted to limit it to morals then the question you must ask yourself is this. "If God exists can I consider myself to be depraved against his measure of good and evil. A hopeless case on his day of judgement?" One doesn't have to believe in God to decide that. And even that self admission is something he can work with (if he exists). But he cannot work with the denial inherent in procrastination. Agnostism is denial by the back door - it doesn't fool Him.

Whatever Percys goal, for a Christian it sure beats having to stand on rainy street corners handing out tracts!

One believes it because it has been deduced. One believes because it makes logical sense. The only thing is that you aren't the one deducing it for you. He is.If you want him to he can. If you really don't want him to he can't.One can ask him to help along the way - even if they don't believe he exists. He is not so unreasonable as to expect you to believe he exists when you can't.You don't know him Robin. But the question is:Do you want to know him?Or even, do you want to want to know him?

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Carpenter from Nazareth seeks joiners

From a lack of rejection of work done in that person by God -although that action of God is not necessarily seen by the person as being the work of God. The speed of movement of doesn't alter that to my mind - a person is being called and is denying/responding to that ongoing call from day 1 (or thereabouts) until they die or the call ceases. A person can reject sufficiently unto damnation in other words.