none of the above

I know that the founder of this board is an "Evo" and also believes, and there are at least several others as well.I know that Gene90 is a Mormon and an Evo. Andya is a Muslim and an Evo.Most people I have ever known believe in a god or gods of some kind and also accept science fully. It is actually a very tiny minority of the world's population (who have access to science education) to reject science in favor of (forgive me) superstition.IOW, most people's concept of God or gods is not limited to a literal reading of a single book.

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I actually condone the idea of christianity without the concept of hell. Damnation is the only real problem that i have with christianity, i think that the fire and brimstone message is a prime example of 'bad religion'. Hell-free christianity is a very happy and fulfilling system of belief, it doesn't try to judge others, it only tries to bring happiness.

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As a woman, I'm not too fond of the male-superiority that Christianity promotes.

The thing is, women were considered chattel, more or less, in the Bible. There are a few remarkable women in there, but all of them were subjegated to males simply because they were female.I'm sorry, but the Bible and Judeo/Christianity, along with other world religions, simply use God to justify male dominance and superiority, and thus female subjegation and inferiority.To read what the Bible instructs females to act like, and to read what the Bible states women are worth and to be used for, is pretty awful.I mean, female children are worth less than some inanimate objects.

I am sad about it, just like I am sad that my mother was expected to give up her career and stay home with four kids.It is all socialization, religious or secular, meant to keep women as less than fully adult and compliant. It certainly easier to always get your way if your wife thinks she is going against God's wishes if she thinks her opinion has as much importance and clout in the marriage as her husband's.What is a wife that is submissive to her husband other than a sexualized child?

I understand all that you are saying, and I understand that times change and religions do too.I do see, however, all around the world, the places where women are treated the worst is often where Christianity or another "God is male"-type religion, such as Islam, are practiced. Hindus are not much better, despite having strong goddess figures.

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Even most of the strong emphasis on wifely or womanly submission is in the South, where the culture leans that way, anyway.

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Well, why do you think the culture leans that way? Because it's the Bible belt, of course!Some of the most horrible things people do to one another wouldn't be possible without religion. In this light, I think it can safely be said that much of the sexism and woman-hating in the world can be traced to people believing that God chooses males as special and females secondary in importance to males.It all comes back to power. Male-centered religions teach males to expect and feel deserving of power over others, just as they teach women to reject and feel undeserving of power over others.Someone to submits to another is giving over their power to another.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-18-2003]

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In fact, I believe there is a great deal of power in a proper submission, and it can overthrow a bad authority without force.

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So, I really don't understand this at all. How does submitting to a bad authority end up overthrowing it, particularly in a marriage?I mean, everything I've ever learned about the psychology of abusive people, for example, says that it doesn't matter haw "good" the victim is or how much they try to do what the abuser wants, the abuser will most likely end up continuing to abuse the victim.So, I guess I'd like an example of what you consider a "proper submission". because this one has me stumped.

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I didn't like the negative picture of submission, because I think it can be very powerful. I'll explain in a second. However, I sounded way more concrete than I should have.

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I believe some wives ought to dump some husbands, not just submit to them. I believe some leaders of groups, whether religious, social or whatever, ought to be fought (I mean verbally, administratively, or legally, not with fists or weapons).

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I'm with you so far.Of course, I don't think that wives should ever submit to their husbands just because they happen to be expected to do so to be a "good Christian wife". That's a pretty transparent religious control mechanism.

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However, I also believe there are times that a smile and a "no problem," repeated to a leader of whatever form changes things, at least over time. That can mean tolerating things I don't like or bearing some mistreatment. It doesn't mean violating my conscience, which I won't do for anyone. In such a case submission means taking whatever the consequences are of not submitting, whether that be being fired or whatever.

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I guess I just believe it's a principle that works. I have no good natural explanation to offer for why you should trust that it works, but I've sure seen a lot of people dropped from high places after mistreating me (or others). I've tried it, because I'm a religous man who believes in certain principles. I don't know that it's necessary to share the stories, as you would probably call them coincidences, and I have no way to prove they're not.

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What you are talking about isn't submission. It's passive resistance.And I don't think that people in high places being dropped after mistreating people is either coincidence nor magic. It's more like tribal cosequences.Anyway, you would have to have kept detailed, accurate records of all the people in high places who abused you, of those who didn't abuse you, and what ended up happening to each of them in order to go back and accurately know what happened.Because we are human and humans are all terribly biased, we are likely to remember the bad people getting toppled much more than the good people getting the same treatment. So, you don't know if there is a statistically significant effect going on or not. All you have is your memory, and we all know how reliable that is.