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Author Topic:   Jesus Dying For Our Sins - Please HELP MY CONFUSION - Interesting
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 16 (66111)
11-12-2003 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by User
10-30-2003 8:22 PM


taking baby steps
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so he created a divine human in Jesus to be perfect and be a sacrifice for people. Now, how does this work? Jesus spread the word of God and those who followed would go to heaven because of Jesus' sacrifice and their following of him. Was Jesus told to spread these teachings stragith from God?
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Please do not consider my subject derrogatory, I simply want to take things one (or two) at a time.
First, let me say that the Bible is clear that God did not "create" Jesus, but rather God came to the earth in human form, being the very Jesus Christ of the scriptures. (more on this in a sec.)
The way it works, dealing only with the issue of sacrifice, is actually rather simple. Its a reference to an old Jewish custom as laid out by the law that a sacrifice for sins must be made. The jews were required to offer a lamb that was first born from its mother and was also without defect, blemish, or any shortcoming as a sacrifice for their sins, as a nation, once a year.
Sin is a thing that is worthy of a penalty, true. And that penalty must be paid. Only a worthy sacrifice can be offered for sin. So if you were to offer your own life and blood for your sin, it would be unworthy because of the sin before God that you have committed. Here is the connection: The Bible says in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 (and I think around verse 19 or so) that God made "him to be sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
That means that God came to earth himself, being sinless, and took upon himself the penalty of every human being's sin (past, present, future for God is a limitless being). This action made it poosible for any person to receive this atoning death as a payment for their sins by confessing faith in the completed work of Christ as that payment.
While Christ taught many things on the earth, the majority of them will find their subject matter in the statement of John 14:6, which is a statement by Jesus Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but by me." So his "teachings" were merely a propigation of the good news (gospel) of what Christ had done for all people.
hope this helps clarify
Russ
[This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by User, posted 10-30-2003 8:22 PM User has not replied

  
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 16 (66207)
11-13-2003 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by User
10-30-2003 8:22 PM


belief before Christ
If I may be so bold I would like to direct the comments back to the questions at hand: the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and the propigation of his teaching,
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All these people then went to hell?
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What needs to be understood here is that God did not "come to his senses" during the roman empire and say "Hey, I have to do something about the sins of humanity."
The scripture is clear that the plan of redemption through Christ's atoning death was developed before time began and is for all time. This seems to cause confusion when the people under the Old Covenant (Old Testament) are considered. But this discrepancy is no discrepancy. Beginning with Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, and going through the rest of the Old Testament, there is a clear promise that a redeemer will be given.
Now remember, the Bible says that Christ's sacrifice paid the sin debt of all humanity. The case then is, and this is apparent from scripture, that the requirement of the Old Testament believer was to believe on that forthcoming redeemer. The only difference between them and us, really, is that we have that Redeemer revealed in the incarnation of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ.
So then, to answer your question, albeit not briefly, the only people who ever go to hell are those who reject the Messiah that God has provided to remove the sin debt of each individual human.
again, hope this helps for clarification concerning what the Bible says on the issue.
Russ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by User, posted 10-30-2003 8:22 PM User has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 11-13-2003 7:20 AM apostolos has replied

  
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 16 (66216)
11-13-2003 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
11-13-2003 7:20 AM


Re: belief before Christ
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So does this imply if christians were to never speak of the messiah then all those people who never hear of him will not go to hell?
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I want to tell you that I genuinely appreciate your question because it is a very good one. I hope you will be satisfied with a simple answer. I can provide a more complex one but that would require more time (which doesn't bother me the slightest, as long as there is an interest in a complex answer over a simple one).
My statement may ~appear~ to imply that but it actually does not. This is because it is a question of the character of God, not of the actions of Christians.
To state it simply, it is God himself who works around, in, and through man in various ways (most commonly by what is referred to as conscience) to bring individuals to a knowledge that they have violated an absolute standard of behavior. (I understand this could take a wild turn into many other arguments but I hope it will stay on the issue at hand.) While I am not trying to prove that last point, let me state, as an example, our own personal knowledge of wrongdoing that we are guilty of committing.
The point is that because of the fall of man (Genesis 3), all people have inherited a propensity to do sin. We are tempted, and because we are outside of God (in a manner of speaking), we are powerless to resist and therefore give in, breaking God's absolute standard for human behavior.
Now the payment for that sin debt is Jesus Christ, the son of God, being very God, who took upon himself all of man's sin debt as he went to the grave, and left it there when he rose again on the third day. The question is can a person avoid hell because they never heard about the messiah? *The answer is an absolute and unquestionable no. The reason is that beginning in Genesis 3:15, God provided a promise of a redeemer to all people (Adam and Eve at the time). That same promise, through the remainder of the Old Testament and even into the New, went out to all people throughout the earth universally.*
This is perfectly harmonious with God's character, and I will demonstrate that by quoting a single verse:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." 2Peter 3:9
The point then, is that God has provided for that which he desires first and foremost: the redemption of all created people to himself, the Creator. While I can not delineate the exact manner of this in every instance, let me say that Romans Chapter 1 stands as a very strong testimony to this fact (especially verses 16-22).
Hope this answers your question, and if not please let me know how else I may be of assistance.
Russ
P.S. - the section set off by asterisks is something I have dealt with a little more specifically in the posts I put up in the other thread I am involved in. Just click my username to go to them. I think they may help for clarification.
[This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 11-13-2003 7:20 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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