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Author Topic:   What would heaven be like?
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 33 (27881)
12-26-2002 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mr. Davies
12-24-2002 11:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
I heard heaven is much hotter than hell. In hell, there's boiling rivers of sulfur. However the brilliance that is described in heaven would make iron vaporize.


The brillance of the prescence of the Almighty must be incredible! Maybe that is why a fleshly being, limited so greatly, (as we discover through science,and the laws of science) cannot ever stand in his prescence.Maybe this is why we need a body resurected through Christ to stand in his presence?

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-24-2002 11:14 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 33 (27882)
12-26-2002 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:07 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
The privilege of sin is basically our free will to right and wrong

I don't see any taking away of free will by the choice to choose right over wrong?

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:07 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Gzus, posted 12-26-2002 3:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (27913)
12-26-2002 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 1:44 AM


excellent post shiloh

quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
Question: If no one is capable of a sin-free life (other than Christ, which I believe) then how is sin a function of free will? If I am unable, by definition, to fly, how can my failure to fly be held as a product of my "free will?"

there are a couple of points here... first, it's not all about flying or not flying... it's also about being born with wings...

see, it wasn't enough that Jesus never sinned... he wasn't inflicted with the disease of sin at his birth, which is every bit as important... same for adam, of course, and like adam Jesus had freedom of choice every step of the way...

you and i have free will, but it's only after we receive the new life that we are able to choose to think God's thoughts after him... that means we don't have to sin anymore, sin's power is broken... it doesn't mean we *won't* sin, simply that we don't have to...

we put "sin" in a category that makes it appear to be something we choose to do rather than a condition into which we are born... you're right, it's not about free will at all...

quote:
(Side bar: my wife just walked in and pointed out that, if you are a literalist, angels in heaven revolted against God, which would have to be "sin." So, the question that follows is: Do angels have free will? Clearly THEY had the ability to sin in heaven. Of course one could argue that angels were never bought by the blood of Christ. So I'm not sure how that plays into all this.)

-Shiloh


i'm not sure either


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 1:44 AM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 33 (27916)
12-26-2002 12:19 PM


I think, and this is just my 2 cents, that the issue of sin and free will can be brought down to a more fundamental level. IF there was no sinning, as there were no sins to commit in heaven, then all that would be left would be acts of goodness (as judged by earthly measures) and with the ability to act contrary there is no free will. Adam was born without sin, but was capable of sinning, if in heaven we are incapable of sinning then we have no free will. But that might be the point. To fully accept God's law and his word, to gain entrance to heaven you might have to give up free will. Conversly, in Hell you would be unable to do anything other than sin, also giving up your free will. Either way free will would be gone. Purgatory would be the place to go if you desire free will I guess.. that or reincarnation.
  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 33 (27919)
12-26-2002 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky
12-26-2002 4:36 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:

Could you ever appreciate summer if there was no winter?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I take it from your profile information that you're from Canada and may be under a pile of snow right now! So I understand your question!

Having said that, I must disagree with the suggestion that without bad we would not value good. I certainly don't need my wife to cheat on me to help me better value her fidelity.

Summer is nice for what it is- baseball, lemon-aid, shorts, walking the dog- not for what it isn't- glittering snow fields, crisp air, nights at home with family around the fireplace...

It's all in how one sees it. But it doesn't seem to me to define good v. evil, right v. wrong, sin v. righteousness.

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:36 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by RedVento, posted 12-26-2002 1:46 PM shilohproject has not yet responded
 Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 2:38 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 33 (27922)
12-26-2002 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:49 PM


quote:

I take it from your profile information that you're from Canada and may be under a pile of snow right now! So I understand your question!

Having said that, I must disagree with the suggestion that without bad we would not value good. I certainly don't need my wife to cheat on me to help me better value her fidelity.

Summer is nice for what it is- baseball, lemon-aid, shorts, walking the dog- not for what it isn't- glittering snow fields, crisp air, nights at home with family around the fireplace...

It's all in how one sees it. But it doesn't seem to me to define good v. evil, right v. wrong, sin v. righteousness.

-Shiloh


But if there was only summer, could you still appreciate it? With nothing to compare it to how could you honestly say you appreciate something that you would just take for granted. It would be like saying I am really happy I don't have a car, when I've never had a car anyway. Sure I can say it, but its impossible to really mean it since I've never had life with a car to compare to life without.

A friend of mine is like that actually.. He always says he is the first to admit when he wrong. But he never thinks he is wrong so he never has to admit it. He might as well say he will be happy to give me a million dollars when he sprouts wings and flys to the moon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:49 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 33 (27923)
12-26-2002 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:49 PM


It's all in how one sees it. But it doesn't seem to me to define good v. evil, right v. wrong, sin v. righteousness.

Nuts I thought it was a good analogy, does this work? If you never had to leave home for an extended period of time could we ever really appreciate our home?

I don't think so, seems to me that we would always be wanting to go abroad and see what else is out there and never be content with our home.In the same way our heavenly Father has sent us abroad to see and experince the opposite of him,in order that we might better understand and know him.He has also left the option of not coming home open to us.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:49 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 33 (27924)
12-26-2002 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky
12-26-2002 4:45 AM


I think that the analogy has to be taken further.

If I have a Ferrari and you have a Volvo, then I can value my Ferrari, but if everyone has a Ferrari and no other car ever existed and I’ve never even heard/thought about the possibility of having a ‘volvo’ then there really is truly only Ferrari. Hence Ferrari is normal and rather ordinary.

If Volvo is sin, then is it not sinful to imagine/think about the possibilities of Volvo?

If Ferrari is good, then the only choice can be good and since all Ferraris are the same (perfection is the only good), then there is not freedom of choice. No free will.

To be ‘good’ you must always make the perfect choice, there can only be one perfect choice hence you are unfree.

Why is it bad to be unfree? Because, then you are unconscious, you have no freedom of mind as there can only be one perfect thinking pattern.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:45 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 7:53 PM Gzus has responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 33 (27943)
12-26-2002 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Gzus
12-26-2002 3:05 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gzus:
Why is it bad to be unfree? Because, then you are unconscious, you have no freedom of mind as there can only be one perfect thinking pattern.[/B][/QUOTE]
________________________________________________________________
I don't see this as true.

There is no qualitative value of red over blue, Yankees over Mets, or lions over spring bucks. One does not engage in "sin" by having a differant thinking pattern, so long as that thinking pattern is within the vast range of the nature of God.

I do not have to experience death to appreciate life. I don't need my A/C to go out in the summer to value nice cool air. It may have that effect, but it is not required. All that is necessary is to be aware of the world around me, open to it, and (for me) to speak that appreciation out loud.

This notion that a strict dichotomy exists between good and bad and that good cannot be truely appreciated without experiencing bad is a uniquely Western thought, one we might ought to struggle free from.

If you had a nice Christmas dinner yesterday, was it more enjoyable for you because you knew that many people had nothing at all? Or did your heart go out to them; did you feel somehow guilty or pained for their lack? I'm not saying that we should feel bad about the generosity we show our own families, rather simply that there are many ways to view/react to the things we value.

Like red or blue, Yankees or Mets...and it has little to do with sin or free will.

One of the failings of the church, it seems to me, is the obvious effort to squeeze everyone into the same tiny box. It is not un-Christian to hold differing views on the EvC issue, or the KJV-Only issue, or many other topics on which reasonable people may disagree.

It is only un-Christian if we disagree in a way which offends the nature of God. As if we had a firm handle on that!

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Gzus, posted 12-26-2002 3:05 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 8:42 AM shilohproject has responded
 Message 26 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 9:12 AM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 33 (27962)
12-27-2002 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 7:53 PM


Take water for example. Water is water not bater. But do we appreciate this, no! because bater is a word I just made up. Before I invented/thought about the ‘bater concept’ no one appreciated the fact that water is water and not bater, since bater did not exist in fact or mind.

The same is applicable to good and evil. No one appreciated that good was good and not evil before the concept of ‘evil’was introduced. No one could appreciate good, as there was no reference point for appreciation, just as we could not appreciate the fact that water is water and not bater before the creation of bater.

If there is no sin in heaven, there can be no sin in fact or mind hence ‘setting the clock back’ to the time when sin was as real as bater, hence good cannot be appreciated for its ‘goodness’ in comparison to ‘badness’.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 7:53 PM shilohproject has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by shilohproject, posted 12-27-2002 1:37 PM Gzus has not yet responded
 Message 29 by doctrbill, posted 12-28-2002 11:17 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 33 (27966)
12-27-2002 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 7:53 PM


From shilohproject:

quote:
I don't see this as true.

There is no qualitative value of red over blue, Yankees over Mets, or lions over spring bucks. One does not engage in "sin" by having a differant thinking pattern, so long as that thinking pattern is within the vast range of the nature of God.


The part about color is not exactly true. Here in the south, my eldest daughter was told by a girl from a very religious family that red is the color of the devil and she should not wear it.

As for Yankees vs Mets, they're both evil with the Dodgers/Angels being the good.

I don't even know what sin is. From what I can read from many Chrisitans, sin is turning away from God or saying God does not exist. Even if you help people, raise a family to the best of your abilities, and live a decent, wholesome life, if you deny or question the very existance of God, you can't be living a decent or wholesome life. It seems that God wants you to worship him more that helping others.

(snip parts of shilo's post)

quote:
One of the failings of the church, it seems to me, is the obvious effort to squeeze everyone into the same tiny box.

Which Church? I am guessing you're talking about a Christian Church, but I have no idea which one. I have read where Catholics are not considered to be Christian by others who call themselves true Christians. Talking about a Freewill Baptist to a SBC Baptist also produces entertaining results.

quote:
It is not un-Christian to hold differing views on the EvC issue, or the KJV-Only issue, or many other topics on which reasonable people may disagree.

But we throw out reason when we talk to people who are convinced they can read their holy book correctly and if you don't, you're going against their god.

quote:
It is only un-Christian if we disagree in a way which offends the nature of God. As if we had a firm handle on that!

Exactly. We don't know if there is a god or gods or what form this or those gods take. All we have is what some individuals thought god or gods were like. How can you hit an unseen and perhaps non existant target?

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 7:53 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 33 (27981)
12-27-2002 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Gzus
12-27-2002 8:42 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gzus:
[B]Take water for example. Water is water not bater. But do we appreciate this, no! because bater is a word I just made up. Before I invented/thought about the ‘bater concept’ no one appreciated the fact that water is water and not bater, since bater did not exist in fact or mind.
B][/QUOTE]_________________________________________________

I always liked and appreciated water, particularly since there was no "bater" at all for me to consider. I think your arguement accidently disproves your case.

We will all we better off when we learn to value things for what they are without comparison to any other thing. Do you love one of your children at the expense of the others?

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 8:42 AM Gzus has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 810 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 28 of 33 (28043)
12-28-2002 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky
12-26-2002 4:36 AM


You wrote:
quote:
posted by funkmasterfreaky: ... we will remember the horror of sin ...

To which I replied:

quote:
posted by doctrbill: How can it be "heaven" if we are haunted by horrible and terrible memories?

quote:
funkmasterfreaky: I didn't say anything about being haunted by sin ...

Neither did I. You said, "... we will remember the horror of sin ..."
If our minds are inhabited by horror, how is that not haunting?

quote:
funkmasterfreaky: ... rather exactly the opposite.

I don't understand. How is a horrible memory of sin the exact opposite of sin?

quote:
funkmasterfreaky:
Could you ever appreciate summer if there was no winter?

You seem to be suggesting that in order to appreciate heaven, there must be sin there, or at least a horrible (thus haunting) memory of sin. Is that your meaning?

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:36 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-29-2002 2:32 AM doctrbill has responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 810 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 29 of 33 (28044)
12-28-2002 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Gzus
12-27-2002 8:42 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
Take water for example. Water is water not bater. But do we appreciate this, no! ...

I must say that I appreciate "bater" very much. I appreciate the fact that it is neither the opposite nor the antithesis of water but stands unique unto itself. My personal experience has been that bater possesses qualities both desirable and in some respects uncontrollable. My advice then, to others who find bater interesting, is that they take the mysterious matter in hand and attempt to master it.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Gzus, posted 12-27-2002 8:42 AM Gzus has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 33 (28046)
12-29-2002 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by doctrbill
12-28-2002 11:00 PM


I guess I should have been more clear.I didn't mean to imply that the memory of living in the camp of the enemy would be haunting, I was more getting at the relief of no longer being in the camp.It is easy to take safety for granted when you have never known danger.

So instead of being "haunted" as you suggest, maybe being relieved of the pressure and stress of living in territory operated by the enemy.Having known this,we may appreciate much more the safety and security of proximity to God.

Hopefully I've been clearer this time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by doctrbill, posted 12-28-2002 11:00 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by doctrbill, posted 12-29-2002 9:13 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

  
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