Apostasy from Christ' true teachings

You are correct, that is a good thing not a bad thingThxQuiz

Hi Quiz,For J Smith to be a true prophet, he would be getting his "prophesies" from god, correct? This supposedly holds true for all his doctrines and covenents also? What do you have to say concerning D&C 132, described by J Smith as part of "the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on earth" What happened to this "holy and important doctrine?" When did it become not "holy and important?"------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hey QuizHow is this statement worth anything?.quote:
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"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."This is most likely a proper description of any society throughout history much less our own.How this can be anything but a smokescreen to distract people from thinking for themselves is beyond me.Every generation throughout the ages has assumed that since they were experiencing these things then it must relate to them and their generation is the one to experience end times.Perhaps someone in the forum here can pull up a paragraph showing records of these behaviours descibed.Now to your next point.quote:
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"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "Here the narrator is speaking to the bretheren of the church of Thessoloians and they state that the people not be troubled as the day of christ is at hand.Why would they say this if in fact it were not true?I will leave it at this for now and await your reply before continuing.[This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-30-2003][This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-30-2003][This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-30-2003]

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So in order for you to win persay, you would need to prove to me that J .F. Smith is a false prophet only then will I consider your assertions and trust your words.

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First of all, it is you who are claiming that Smith is a prophet, so it is you who needs to provide evidence to support this assertion.Second, what evidence would you accept which would prove to you that Smith wasn't a prophet?Some examples, please.Third, can you prove that Mohammed was not a prophet? If not, why?

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Also a side note, who publishes this commentary you say I refer to, the only reference I support and refer to are my student manuals who are published strictly by my church.

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Well, if one really wants to do a thorough investigation of the truth, particularly historical truth, one does not restrict one's materials only to one version or one source.In particular, what kind of critical analysis or exploration of evidence which may refute their own claims do you think your instructional materials published by believers is going to provide?None, correct?------------------
"Evolution is a 'theory', just like gravity. If you don't like it, go jump off a bridge."

Ok, Sidelined

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"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

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This is most likely a proper description of any society throughout history much less our own.How this can be anything but a smokescreen to distract people from thinking for themselves is beyond me.Every generation throughout the ages has assumed that since they were experiencing these things then it must relate to them and their generation is the one to experience end times.Perhaps someone in the forum here can pull up a paragraph showing records of these behaviours descibed.

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Now to your next point.

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That "scripture" does provide valuable information as to what era the falling away would happen because more people are among the living now days then there were back in the era these words came forth; and as such I would think logicaly and come to the conclusion that these words are ment for future generations when the acts of evil are at large(for example back then there was perhaps 20 million people on the planet earth, now there is perhaps 20 billion people, those figures are bad but good for the example. more people more sins, thus more evil acts, plus now days evil acts are getting worse and worse not better and better.)

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"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

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Here the narrator is speaking to the bretheren of the church of Thessoloians and they state that the people not be troubled as the day of christ is at hand.Why would they say this if in fact it were not true?

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I will leave it at this for now and await your reply before continuing.

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I am not saying this verse is not true; for the day of Christ is at hand it has been this way for a long time. You have to read the entire scripture to understand it. Lets do a critical analises."Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Well here it points out that the day of Christ or you might as well just say the 2nd coming is at hand. (note it says by the coming of our Lord Jesus, remember that when this letter was written the Lord had already come so this must refer to the 2nd coming and as such I would think it is not just for them, that is the Thessolonians.Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come]"i.e. the 2nd coming", except there come a falling away first,Now it is clear from both pieces of the scripture so far that the day of Christ is at hand or the 2nd coming as I have pointed out, and then it is also importent for the desciples to not be soon shaken by anyway possible BECAUSE there must be a falling away first for the reason below. (a falling away before the 2nd coming that is the idea)and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "This tells me that the son of perdition being the devil or those which find themselfs to agree with him, devils in other words, these demons or evil spirits are infact going to try and deceive the very elect of god and succeed by teaching them that Christ is the savior BUT teaching them hearesy without them knowing. That is what the falling away is all about. "false teachings of Christ, "teaching doctrine which Christ would not teach".)Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

Hey this has nothing to do with your current question but I just want to answer a question you had. here it is belowYou asked me, what time frame would this Apostasy occur?Exact timing? I dont have a exact timing; currently most prophecies are pending as prophecies are for the weak minded I dont go after prophecies to find faith. The prophecy of the Apostasy(i.e falling away). I suppose the Apostasy started closer to the time of Christ; shortly after the Apostles where no longer among the living and became stronger when the Catholic church had taken over the religon in about 325ad. Also note: the darkages; this era would also be another time when the population was large and also doing more evil works then in the past(this is only another example, that is "dark ages".QuizP.S. I will respond in a minute with the answer to your question.[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

What do you mean by this?"plus now days evil acts are getting worse and worse not better and better.)"I think you had better explain what is worse these days compared to back then in terms of "evil acts".

Ok scr,

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First of all, it is you who are claiming that Smith is a prophet, so it is you who needs to provide evidence to support this assertion.

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Second, what evidence would you accept which would prove to you that Smith wasn't a prophet?

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Some examples, please.

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Third, can you prove that Mohammed was not a prophet? If not, why?

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I wont ask for information to show him to be false, he meets the bibles requirments. First having Christ as the savior, 2nd prophecies to come to pass, both have happend. I will ask you to present to me his work to reflect falsehood as I really dont care about checking him out as I have already gone through all of his works.I would need proof showing that the work of Joseph Smith is false. His prophecies to be false, etc.Mohammed he is false by the standars of Christ, the man did not believe in Christ there for he is false.Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

The amount of evil acts being done on a day to day basisQuiz

So "worse and worse" means more and more. Does this mean "better and better" means less and less?

I need you to be more specifc as to what part of chapter 132Quiz

Ok Sidelined,If the world is getting worse and worse what other conclusion would you come to other then more people are commiting sin. I am speaking about the world as a hole not just one person. Now if I Were to say Quiz is getting worse and worse I would assume that ment he is doing something more evil then he was before but since I am speaking about the world as a hole I am speaking of the amount of sin being commited.Quizp.s. Try viewing the world as a profile, "the world is getting worse then it was 100 years ago, this means what? when thinking about the world you understand that the world obtains many people which you would find in this profile, which only half of them sin currently but lets say instead of the world sinning 50% of the time it sins; lets say; 75% of the time; because 75% of the world is sinning now, the profile we saw before is becoming worse and worse or better and better(i.e. less and less)if the sins became less.[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

Doctrine and Covenents/Section 132The Doctrine where JS said god commanded polygamy (plural marriage).------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Oh, back when the church first started it was ok for polygamy just like it was ok back in the times of Abraham, Jacob, etc,. The law does not permit it now and also later on in DC you will see God stopping all acts of polygamy. I know its in the doctrine somewhere as I have already been over this and at first I thought it was not ok but I was Corrected.Quiznote: You might be talking about the part in chapter 132; where DC speaks about the people of the Lord being damned if they dont follow the everlasting covenet. He is not talking about polygamy specificly as being the everlasting covenet you must read on to understand this correctly. Not sure if that is what you are asking me about.[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

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Exact timing? I dont have a exact timing; currently most prophecies are pending as prophecies are for the weak minded I dont go after prophecies to find faith. The prophecy of the Apostasy(i.e falling away). I suppose the Apostasy started closer to the time of Christ; shortly after the Apostles where no longer among the living and became stronger when the Catholic church had taken over the religon in about 325ad. Also note: the darkages; this era would also be another time when the population was large and also doing more evil works then in the past(this is only another example, that is "dark ages".

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I wont ask for information to show him to be false, he meets the bibles requirments. First having Christ as the savior, 2nd prophecies to come to pass, both have happend. I will ask you to present to me his work to reflect falsehood as I really dont care about checking him out as I have already gone through all of his works.
I would need proof showing that the work of Joseph Smith is false. His prophecies to be false, etc.

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Mohammed he is false by the standars of Christ, the man did not believe in Christ there for he is false.

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1. The prophecy you cite in II Thessalonians two about apostacy which comes in latter days is suppose to be fulfilled before (a) the day of Christ and (b) our gathering to him, i.e. the resurrection and gathering of the Christians to meet Christ in the air.
You're pulling it outa context so as to set the stage for Joe Smith to allegedly fix it as it appears. According to the text it is to set the stage for the man of sin/anti christ to appear on the world scene, not for some prophet to come and fix things. The "day of Christ" will fix the problem when he returns to earth to do just that.2. The prophecies you refer to all came from the Bible. If Joe Smith was a true prophet, what supernatural prophecy did he give the world to show he is a true prophet. About a third of his book, the Book of Mormon is Biblical plagerism and the rest is a lota irrevelant stuff about folks neither found in history or archeology anywhere.