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Author Topic:   Paul of Tarsus - the first Christian?
Phat
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Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 219 (200890)
04-21-2005 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
04-21-2005 5:43 AM


I would agree that a case could be made for Paul being the founder of Christianity. Jesus initially came in order to lead Israel into the Messianic kingdom. The time was not yet here for God to open the invitation to the non-jews. The saints of past ages were not all saved by believing the same things, for God did not reveal the same things to them all. The Jews had to first attempt--and fail--to keep all of the laws perfectly. When God says, "Offer an animal in sacrifice and I will accept you," what will our faith do? Faith will offer an animal in sacrifice, of course. Abel did this and was accepted, not because the blood of beasts can take away sins, but because he approached God in God's way. This is "the obedience of faith."
"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).
Stam writes:
The supposition that the most important division of the Bible is that between the Old and New Testaments has often been expressed in the statement: "The Old Testament is for the Jews; the New Testament is for us."
This is quite incorrect, however. First of all, the titles Old Testament and New Testament are not accurate designations of the two sections of the Bible which they are supposed to represent.
The covenant of the law (later called the old covenant, or testament) was not made until 2500 years of human history had elapsed. "The law was given by Moses" (John 1:17), about 1500 B.C., as recorded in Exodus 19 and 20. We are told concerning this period of time "from Adam to Moses" that "there [was] no law" (Rom. 5:13,14), i.e., the law had not yet been given.
This means that there is actually not one word of the Old Testament in Genesis. Indeed, Israel did not even emerge as a nation until her deliverance from Egypt described in Exodus. If, therefore, the Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament for us, for whom is the book of Genesis?
As to the new covenant; this was not made until the death of Christ.
He is the Mediator of the new testament [covenant] that by means of death . . . they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15).
It was in the shadow of the cross, as our Lord communed with His disciples, that He said:
"This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20).
This means that the greater part of the four gospel records actually covers old testament rather than new testament history and that our Lord and His disciples all lived under the old covenant at that time.1
It should be noted too that both the actual old and new testaments, though they affect us, were made with the nation Israel, and that the new covenant simply promises that Israel will one day render spontaneously the obedience required of her under the old covenant. (Deut. 5:1-3, Jer. 31:31).
The most important division in the Bible, then, is not that between the so-called Old and New Testaments.
The most important division in the Bible is that between prophecy and the great mystery proclaimed by the Apostle Paul.
There are many ways of interpreting the Bible, and I prefer dispensationalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 04-21-2005 5:43 AM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2005 7:59 AM Phat has not replied
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 Message 19 by ramoss, posted 04-23-2005 12:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 22 of 219 (201442)
04-23-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ramoss
04-23-2005 12:15 PM


ramoss writes:
You obviously don't understand Judaism at all.... not surprising.
I will agree with you here
You seem to misunderstand a lot of the message of Jesus too, which is not surprising, since you are looking at the words of Jesus through Christian eyes, and not through the eyes of someone who is coming from a Jewish heritage , (which Jesus was).
Yet the Jews themselves did not and do not understand Jesus, as the Gospels affirm, because they were blinded by their own theocratic intellectualism.
You seem to indicate that Jesus was a mere man who is now dead. Judaism would by and large agree with that statement.
You don't understand Christianity because you don't understand Christ.
The central focus...and question...for everyone in these types of discussions and debates centers on who Christ is.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-23-2005 09:55 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 110 of 219 (212875)
05-31-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Legend
05-30-2005 7:18 PM


Re: Paul was directly commissioned by Christ
Well, if the views of two different sources contradict each other, shouldn't we use the facts about who wrote what when to determine which is closer to the truth ?
Its because of Dispensationalism...which explains the difference and why.
http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm Look at the book here, online. This book explains why Paul preached a different Gospel than did Jesus and the "little flock" of the twelve apostles.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 136 of 219 (230141)
08-05-2005 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by loko
08-05-2005 8:21 AM


Progressive revelation.
The difference between the teachings of Paul versus Jesus, James, etc. is that Paul was speaking mainly to non-Jews.
Tony Garland writes:
One of the most difficult aspects of interpreting the Scriptures is determining those aspects which are continuous (have not changed over time) from those which are discontinuous (changed with time). For example, the way of salvation has always been by faith alone (Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4). On the other hand, God's declaration concerning that which is considered unclean has changed with time (Lev. 11:1-17; 20:25; Deu. 14:1-29 vs. Acts 10:10-17; 15:28-29). Another example of a discontinuity would be the prohibition on eating meat (Gen. 1:29 vs. Gen. 9:3; Deu. 12:15).
Salvation by Grace is a revelation to the non-Jew. Works are simply evidence of the indwelling Spirit yet are NOT a requirment to attain that Spirit! For the Jews, however, works were a requirment of their knowledge of what they knew. They were also saved by election if they maintained the genuine works which confirmed their belief...rather than works as a ritualistic effort.

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