Chemical Evolution

Hambre stated: I once thought the same thing, but if we give this argument, are we not presupposing the laws of physics being in existence already?So how do we account for those laws having the appearence of being set? Why are they just so? What is the fine tuning of the universe all about?Can we say that the fine tuning is caused by chance, as a means of disputing creationist's claims that evolution on the chemical level implys chance?Certainly we cannot!

Hello, jar. Thank you for your response: I understand your meaning. Certainly point of view comes into play. Though I don't know that point of view can change reality. This is a serious problem in my view...Perhaps you missed my point. It was in response to Hambre. You may have to read his post to see the context. He was explaining why chemical evolution does not imply chance, so as to refute the creationists. But the argument explained nothing in the end. He must just assume the existence of the physical laws that make the order and existence of life inevitable. And he appears to be unaware of this. I wanted him to have an honest look at the real problem here.There are only two options. Chance or design. I don't see any other solution.I am only making known that we cannot escape chance without invoking design. I concluded that, because if we invoke any kind of unexplained existence we only move chance from one dimension of existence to the next.He is sayng in essence, that the physical world just is. Kind of in the spirit of Bertrand Russel who, when asked how he explained the existence of the universe, he said, 'It's just there!'If we can say that without explanation, then the theist can say the same thing about God. We just can't do it!You can if you want. I would not deny your right to do so. But I am not personally satisfied by the argument any longer. It is simply not intellectually satisfying. I have had to discard it.

I am not suggesting that in the sense I believe you meant. I will leave that to the string theorists.Personally, I tend to think that this universe exists the way it is, because it is simply not possible for physical existence to be otherwise. The only thing that bothers me, is that I have a nagging sense that our lives should be better than they are. That existence should be better than it is. But the only way I can see to do that, is to invoke some metaphysical purpose that underlies my observation that all is not well. Otherwise, this conflict we see all around us in many forms... just isIf that conclusion is correct, then in order to suggest that the president of Iran is not appointed by God to destroy Israel, I must conclude that there is an objective to existence to which he is in violation. If existence just is, then how can I say that he is not? In such a reality, he would only be expressing a dimension of the universe that just is.Also, if existence just is, then any expression that it is not would also be an expression of the universe that just is. And at that pooint, our discussion would be meaningless, since we are only functioning according to immutable laws that govern our being.I just cannot believe that I am only a machine. Hitler thought so. And though he was logical, I must conclude that his presuppositions were incorrect. My only alternative is to accept that his actions were simply inevitable. You are quite correct. That is why I shy away from string theory.
As to your question, I think that it is the only way we can logically conclude that there is a moral code with which to live by. But I must invoke a metaphysical argument to do so. I simply must conclude that the universe was intended to be that way. Otherwise, to suggest that it be 'this way' as opposed to 'that', I would have to violate the fundamental reality that it just is.To deny tuning, is to deny ourselves the ability to tune. Yet if we assume that tuning is the fundamental reality (the prime objective if you will) then we really just have to get into tune with what that is.So, in the case of no tuning. Then chaos is effectively God. To have order as God, we simply must conclude tuning in my opinion.That what I think... So I am curious, what makes you think the ohysical laws are not tuned?

I am rather puzzled by the need for argument here. I was responding to Hambre. I will await his response.Believe what you will...

Well, that is interesting isn't it! Thanks, I didn't notice... Tuning implies creating for a purpose or cause. And if the universe has, as it's -objective nature-, or as it's -base reality-, an uncaused or unpurposed existence (if it is untuned) then you and I cannot assume a tuning (or any other reality or nature) without being in direct opposition to it's underlying purposelessness. For lack of a better word, it would be unnatural for us to do so. We would not have a reason to do so.

Ok then, why is a piano tuned? Or a vehicle? Or whatever?So look man, whoever you are. In a word, yes.If I am missing something, please explain. Please dispense with simple rejections.

What you said was that the universe just is. And if it just is, and we are a product of it as you say, then how can you say the tuning is not very good? How do you make a judgement about reality being bad?e.g. What is wrong with extinction? It just is!Now I don't believe that for a minute, but you said that you do!And I said that is why I feel the need to invoke a metaphysic that is beyond what I see. Because it is the only place I can gather a straight line, by which to measure the ones I think are bent.

Do you see the words not very good in your comment?The fact is that all creatures die. But to say that it is 'not very good' is to express a judgement.Here you did it again-All highlighted texts are value judgements. How can we judge facts?I get the impression that you think life is good. Well it is not good. It's not bad. It just is. That's evolution.It's not an accident. And it's not designed. It just is.Corporate greed? Religious fanatacism? Kids walking into school with guns and killing fellow students?
None of those are bad... it is just the way it is.The only way we can say otherwise, is if there is something more to the story beyond what is appearent.I agree with you that life is good. And I find death to be unsatisfactory. But I cannot say that unless there is something more to this picture.I sometimes wonder if the universe is fine tuned. Very fine tuned indeed! Perhaps our need to make value judgements is reflecting part of the tuning. I hope so. Because if it just is, then we cannot presume to make value judgements. They would have to match an underlying tune.Pianos are tuned to create ordered and flowing music. Automobiles are tuned to create smooth and efficient transportation.Laws are tuned to create ordered and smooth societies.But if this universe is not tuned for ordered societies, then we are trying to do the impossible.If the universe is tuned for ordered societies, then the tune would already be there.Perhaps it is we, who do not follow the tune.