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Author Topic:   AL (Artificial Life) and the people who love it
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 185 (417589)
08-23-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


You beat me to it!
I saw this article the other day, this should be a great discussion here.
What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish. Because believe you me, them wetlab boys aren't going to stop with a buncha oil-munching microbes. Who knows what they're gonna cook up?
First off, they aren't the only ones who are in a race to be the first to "create"(make) life in a petri dish.
I want to say, that they aren't making life from scratch, like God did. They are only combining existing compounds, and making a biological machine.
Will it be life? That remains to be seen.
Will it be able to replicate itself?
Will it get sick?
Will it evolve?
For me, it means nothing until it happens. The only thing I am worried about is if their so called "life" is successful, will it run amok? They are saying it won't, but why should I believe them?
They are talking about designing biological machines to help cure diseases, sounds dangerous to me.
Even if I didn't believe in God (which I didn't for most of my life) I don't feel as though we have a right to be playing games with life. That does not mean, I am against curing peoples diseases.
Here is the cartoon:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 4:44 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 12:14 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 08-23-2007 12:14 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 08-23-2007 3:08 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 40 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 6:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 16 of 185 (417604)
08-23-2007 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
08-23-2007 12:14 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
Look at them goalposts run.
What goalposts?
God made everything from nothing, that has always been the goalpost, we will never be able to do that, since we've already determined, that matter can neither be created, or destroyed.
You act as if I represent creationists or something, I do not. I just believe in God.
That's like saying your supper isn't really supper unless you grew all the food yourself.
That is a bad analogy, I won't even debate it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 12:51 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 29 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 4:04 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 6:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 17 of 185 (417607)
08-23-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
08-23-2007 12:14 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
But these same compounds have been created countless times before in various apparatuses (apparati?).
The word "created" is a dangerous word. Technically speaking, they were only put together, or made, not created from scratch like the OP says.
The point of the experiment isn't to disprove god the creator, riverrat.
I never said it was.
Anyway, I'm just curious. Are you against genetic engineering of any kind?
I don't know enough to have a stance on it. But surely there is a line that should be drawn somewhere. Obviously not if helps us. But I want to be assured that any "created" life, will not destroy us.
The movie Frankenstein comes to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 08-23-2007 12:14 PM Taz has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 19 of 185 (417615)
08-23-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-23-2007 12:51 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
No, that's never been the goalpost. The goalpost is "Can we create life?" Whether or not it has been created before by gods or monsters is completely irrelevant.
It's not my goalpost, that is the problem.
My belief's in God coincide with, where did the whole universe come from to begin with anyway? Not, let's build so called life in a petri dish. I have always thought that was possible.
The movie Johnny Five comes to mind.
Define "create".
Tell me something, if this life made in a petri dish, never reproduces, or evolves, is it life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 12:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Parasomnium, posted 08-23-2007 1:23 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 1:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 22 of 185 (417624)
08-23-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Parasomnium
08-23-2007 1:23 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
I don't evolve, and I'm not planning on reproducing.
Evolve can be a relative term, so you mean to tell me you haven't changed at all since you were young?
Plus planning on reproducing, and be able to, are two separate issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Parasomnium, posted 08-23-2007 1:23 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 08-29-2007 8:25 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 23 of 185 (417627)
08-23-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
08-23-2007 1:27 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
For all intents and purposes, create = make. Forget that ex nihilo crap.
Not to me, when it comes to this subject.
If they can make it reproduce perfectly, they can prevent it from evolving.
Somehow, I just doubt that. I bet you it will be a mule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 1:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 2:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 30 of 185 (417807)
08-24-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
08-23-2007 2:10 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
There you go then, you're setting your own goalposts. You're setting up the requirements so that science can't win.
Oh really. I guess I finally did something right then.
Oh c'mon. Even I know more biology than that.
You act like we have so much control over life as it is.
I am not sure what you mean, besides, I am only speculating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 2:10 PM ringo has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 185 (417809)
08-24-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by molbiogirl
08-23-2007 3:08 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
The only thing I am worried about is if their so called "life" is successful, will it run amok?
(7 messages later)
Tell me something, if this life made in a petri dish, never reproduces, or evolves, is it life?
Which is it, rat?
I don't know what it will be, I am not the one working on it. I am just asking question, to discuss.
This really isn't a big deal for me. I don't have a problem with it. I also have no clue why you seem to be arguing with me over it.
AL will eat, "breathe", move, reproduce. By even the most rudimentary definition, this constitutes life. And it will evolve (insertions, deletions, point mutations, etc.). After all, nobody's perfect, not even AL.
That will be interesting to see.
Now if it does do all that, then that is evidence that we were designed, lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 08-23-2007 3:08 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 08-24-2007 6:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 33 of 185 (417816)
08-24-2007 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by anastasia
08-24-2007 4:04 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
The Bible deosn't do such a good job at clarifying for us whether God made everything from nothing, or just the first thing from nothing.
Doesn't the bible say that God spoke the world into existance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 4:04 PM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 35 of 185 (417818)
08-24-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by molbiogirl
08-24-2007 6:55 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
No. That will be evidence that, given the periodic chart, random chance alone will produce life. It was inevitable. Given the initial conditions.
Look, they are designing life, they are not randomly putting together life.
We already know with much authority, that the elements exist on this planet for life to exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 08-24-2007 6:55 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by molbiogirl, posted 08-24-2007 7:25 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 38 of 185 (417908)
08-25-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by molbiogirl
08-24-2007 7:25 PM


Re: Abiogenesis
You concede abiogenesis?
No, and I do not concede God. I believe in God.
There is a big difference between a biological machine, and life. Sounds like they are just about to scratch the surface, we will see what comes about.
Either way, they are designing it, and engineering it.
God spoke the universe into existence (according to the bible), I don't think we will ever be able to do that. What God did from there, or how we came about, whether it be evolution, or from the breath of God, it really doesn't matter to me.
It is interesting to discuss and study, but for me to say either one or the other, is ridiculous. Given the poor history of both science and religion to deliver answers, I rely on love. When there is no love, there is no life.
BTW, Yo hablo Espanol.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by molbiogirl, posted 08-24-2007 7:25 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 5:27 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 42 by Parasomnium, posted 08-25-2007 6:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 185 (418287)
08-27-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rrhain
08-25-2007 6:10 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
That's not what the Bible says. Adam, specifically, was made from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adam's rib.
Yes, I am well aware of that. Where did the dust come from?
Therefore, what's the problem with humans doing the same thing?
Nothing. God is Lord of lords, and we are little gods. Jesus said we will do greater things. We are made in his image. Stands to reason, we would start doing things the way he did it.
Look at a bacteria flagellum, and its amazing similarity to an electric motor. Something we designed without even knowing what a bacteria flagellum looked like.
I get the feeling you won't be satisfied unless and until humans can clap their hands, declaim "Presto!" and zap-poof a kitten into being on command.
Thats right.
I accept all of this, but it still doesn't answer the question, where did the universe come from. Nor does it stop people from wondering if there isn't more out there, or life after death.
All this "life" in a lab points towards intelligent design (not that I subscribe to it).
Tell me, is there anything wrong with the idea of being designed to evolve?
What is the force behind evolution?
Plus it doesn't stop the voices in my head.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 6:10 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2007 3:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 185 (418288)
08-27-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Parasomnium
08-25-2007 6:50 PM


Re: Biological machine
You, riVeRraT, are a biological machine, and you are also alive.
That doesn't mean they are the same. Whats the difference between a car, and a tree? Why can't my car be life?
Is the only requirement for being life, is to be biological?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Parasomnium, posted 08-25-2007 6:50 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2007 4:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 185 (418296)
08-27-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Rrhain
08-25-2007 6:03 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
Some quotes from the links you provided.
"The difference is that our molecule has the type of growth that is necessary to allow artificial evolution
Not Found
The requested URL /~thutton/Evolution/Squirm3/ was not found on this server.
third link you need a subscription
Error
We are sorry - there has been an error processing your request. Please return to the Nature home page.
Scientists at The Skaggs Institute for Chemical Biology, a part of The Scripps Research Institute (TSRI) in Southern California, published a paper in the February 15, 2001, issue of Nature that suggests a possible answer to how one of the early steps necessary for the origins of life arose.
Emphasis mine.
This molecule was
initially formed by reacting two other molecules.
In other words, they "created" nothing.
Please note, I am not dismissing this stuff, I find it amazing, and helpful. But it still does not answer the question, where did all of this come from.
I don't really care if we evolved or not, it doesn't affect my faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 6:03 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 1:45 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 52 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2007 4:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 47 of 185 (418340)
08-27-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by molbiogirl
08-27-2007 1:45 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
They are not creating anything, as I have pointed out several times.
When I first heard of creating molecules, giving them the benifit of the doubt, and not saying they are creating something from nothing, they aren't even combining atoms to make molecules, they are only combining other molecules.
Big deal.
It helps science, and for us to understand what was already created, but it does not explain where we came from at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 1:45 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 7:48 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 49 by NosyNed, posted 08-27-2007 8:02 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
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