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Author | Topic: AL (Artificial Life) and the people who love it | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I saw this article the other day, this should be a great discussion here.
What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish. Because believe you me, them wetlab boys aren't going to stop with a buncha oil-munching microbes. Who knows what they're gonna cook up? First off, they aren't the only ones who are in a race to be the first to "create"(make) life in a petri dish. I want to say, that they aren't making life from scratch, like God did. They are only combining existing compounds, and making a biological machine. Will it be life? That remains to be seen.Will it be able to replicate itself? Will it get sick? Will it evolve? For me, it means nothing until it happens. The only thing I am worried about is if their so called "life" is successful, will it run amok? They are saying it won't, but why should I believe them?They are talking about designing biological machines to help cure diseases, sounds dangerous to me. Even if I didn't believe in God (which I didn't for most of my life) I don't feel as though we have a right to be playing games with life. That does not mean, I am against curing peoples diseases. Here is the cartoon:
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Look at them goalposts run. What goalposts? God made everything from nothing, that has always been the goalpost, we will never be able to do that, since we've already determined, that matter can neither be created, or destroyed. You act as if I represent creationists or something, I do not. I just believe in God.
That's like saying your supper isn't really supper unless you grew all the food yourself. That is a bad analogy, I won't even debate it.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
But these same compounds have been created countless times before in various apparatuses (apparati?). The word "created" is a dangerous word. Technically speaking, they were only put together, or made, not created from scratch like the OP says.
The point of the experiment isn't to disprove god the creator, riverrat. I never said it was.
Anyway, I'm just curious. Are you against genetic engineering of any kind? I don't know enough to have a stance on it. But surely there is a line that should be drawn somewhere. Obviously not if helps us. But I want to be assured that any "created" life, will not destroy us. The movie Frankenstein comes to mind.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
No, that's never been the goalpost. The goalpost is "Can we create life?" Whether or not it has been created before by gods or monsters is completely irrelevant. It's not my goalpost, that is the problem.My belief's in God coincide with, where did the whole universe come from to begin with anyway? Not, let's build so called life in a petri dish. I have always thought that was possible. The movie Johnny Five comes to mind. Define "create". Tell me something, if this life made in a petri dish, never reproduces, or evolves, is it life?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I don't evolve, and I'm not planning on reproducing. Evolve can be a relative term, so you mean to tell me you haven't changed at all since you were young? Plus planning on reproducing, and be able to, are two separate issues.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
For all intents and purposes, create = make. Forget that ex nihilo crap. Not to me, when it comes to this subject.
If they can make it reproduce perfectly, they can prevent it from evolving. Somehow, I just doubt that. I bet you it will be a mule.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
There you go then, you're setting your own goalposts. You're setting up the requirements so that science can't win. Oh really. I guess I finally did something right then.
Oh c'mon. Even I know more biology than that. You act like we have so much control over life as it is.I am not sure what you mean, besides, I am only speculating.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
The only thing I am worried about is if their so called "life" is successful, will it run amok? (7 messages later)
Tell me something, if this life made in a petri dish, never reproduces, or evolves, is it life? Which is it, rat? I don't know what it will be, I am not the one working on it. I am just asking question, to discuss. This really isn't a big deal for me. I don't have a problem with it. I also have no clue why you seem to be arguing with me over it.
AL will eat, "breathe", move, reproduce. By even the most rudimentary definition, this constitutes life. And it will evolve (insertions, deletions, point mutations, etc.). After all, nobody's perfect, not even AL. That will be interesting to see. Now if it does do all that, then that is evidence that we were designed, lol.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
The Bible deosn't do such a good job at clarifying for us whether God made everything from nothing, or just the first thing from nothing. Doesn't the bible say that God spoke the world into existance?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
No. That will be evidence that, given the periodic chart, random chance alone will produce life. It was inevitable. Given the initial conditions. Look, they are designing life, they are not randomly putting together life. We already know with much authority, that the elements exist on this planet for life to exist.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
You concede abiogenesis? No, and I do not concede God. I believe in God. There is a big difference between a biological machine, and life. Sounds like they are just about to scratch the surface, we will see what comes about. Either way, they are designing it, and engineering it. God spoke the universe into existence (according to the bible), I don't think we will ever be able to do that. What God did from there, or how we came about, whether it be evolution, or from the breath of God, it really doesn't matter to me. It is interesting to discuss and study, but for me to say either one or the other, is ridiculous. Given the poor history of both science and religion to deliver answers, I rely on love. When there is no love, there is no life. BTW, Yo hablo Espanol. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
That's not what the Bible says. Adam, specifically, was made from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adam's rib. Yes, I am well aware of that. Where did the dust come from?
Therefore, what's the problem with humans doing the same thing? Nothing. God is Lord of lords, and we are little gods. Jesus said we will do greater things. We are made in his image. Stands to reason, we would start doing things the way he did it. Look at a bacteria flagellum, and its amazing similarity to an electric motor. Something we designed without even knowing what a bacteria flagellum looked like.
I get the feeling you won't be satisfied unless and until humans can clap their hands, declaim "Presto!" and zap-poof a kitten into being on command. Thats right. I accept all of this, but it still doesn't answer the question, where did the universe come from. Nor does it stop people from wondering if there isn't more out there, or life after death. All this "life" in a lab points towards intelligent design (not that I subscribe to it). Tell me, is there anything wrong with the idea of being designed to evolve? What is the force behind evolution? Plus it doesn't stop the voices in my head. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
You, riVeRraT, are a biological machine, and you are also alive. That doesn't mean they are the same. Whats the difference between a car, and a tree? Why can't my car be life?Is the only requirement for being life, is to be biological?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Some quotes from the links you provided.
"The difference is that our molecule has the type of growth that is necessary to allow artificial evolution Not Found The requested URL /~thutton/Evolution/Squirm3/ was not found on this server. third link you need a subscription Error We are sorry - there has been an error processing your request. Please return to the Nature home page.
Scientists at The Skaggs Institute for Chemical Biology, a part of The Scripps Research Institute (TSRI) in Southern California, published a paper in the February 15, 2001, issue of Nature that suggests a possible answer to how one of the early steps necessary for the origins of life arose.
Emphasis mine.
This molecule was initially formed by reacting two other molecules. In other words, they "created" nothing. Please note, I am not dismissing this stuff, I find it amazing, and helpful. But it still does not answer the question, where did all of this come from. I don't really care if we evolved or not, it doesn't affect my faith.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 447 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
They are not creating anything, as I have pointed out several times.
When I first heard of creating molecules, giving them the benifit of the doubt, and not saying they are creating something from nothing, they aren't even combining atoms to make molecules, they are only combining other molecules. Big deal. It helps science, and for us to understand what was already created, but it does not explain where we came from at all.
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