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| Author | Topic: Philosophical ramblings on the Adam & Eve Parable | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Phat Member  Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jaywill writes: OK. I am the thread starter. Lets discuss what you have to say and what I have to respond and maybe we can arrive at a consensus, or at the very least an understanding. I was looking for a public discussion where I could participate in some Philosophical Ramblings on the Adam and Eve Parable. Now....before you and I can discuss philosophy or theology, we have to get to know each other. There are three basic levels involved in a relationship. 1) Knowing about someone. 2) Meeting someone. 3) Knowing someone. You and I are at the first level right now. We know about each other through reading each others posts. If I may, allow me to attempt to remain on topic here and guide this thread along by going back, re-reading the thread, and attempting to summarize the topic the way that I see it.summary 1 : covering the main points briefly : concise 2 : done without delay or formality <~ punishment> syn terse, succinct, laconic summarily \()se-mer-e-le, se-me-re-le\ adv ***************************************************************** deerbreh,in message#7 writes:
How could a loving God say "Well here is what you can do but by the way, there is a tree over here that has wonderful fruit that you must not eat." Did'nt Jesus suggest in the Lord's prayer that God isn't in the business of tempting us? "Lead us not into temptation" doesn't seem to jive with "forbidden fruit."robinrohan writes:
The story of the Fall was a way of explaining the discrepancy between the real and the ideal. nwr,in post#10 writes:
To me, the idea behind the story is that man was created biologically as an animal (an ape, just as the theory of evolution would say). What differentiates man from ape is not biology, it is that man has knowledge of good and evil. The eating of forbidden fruit is simply a metaphor to account for this distinction.IMO the conclusion is not that we are sinful due to Adam's mistake. Rather, it is that we know good from evil, and hence cannot use ignorance as a way to deny our sinfulness. Since an innocent baby does not know good from evil, that baby is indeed innocent. Philosophers sometimes refer to "the principle of charity". The principle is that, when reading what somebody has written, one should attempt to understand it in a way that is charitable to the author. Here, "charitable" is intended to imply that the text as interpreted makes sense as rational argument or choice by the author. In reading the Adam and Eve story, I think we should read it in a way that is appropriately charitable toward God. robinrohan,in post#11 writes:
OK so far! There are 2 laws: "The law of nature" and the "law of grace."The law of nature is the original covenant between God and Man apparently ("given to man in the estate of innocence") and coresponds, I believe, to the Calvinist "Covenant of Works." The second law is the Covenant of Grace (Christ's sacrifice). Adam and Eve, the Bible suggests, did not know good and evil. However(...) they had a set of rules called the "law of nature"--which sounds like something innate. They had a moral system and, not only that, this system is still in some sense operable. It's puzzling, as I say, but does suggest that this innocent state is more complicated than it might seem--at least according to the Calvinists.
deerbreh, in Post#18 writes: Scripture agrees with you, deerbreh. I guess when I say "free will" I am thinking more of freedom to choose but not freedom to violate the rights of others. So a loving God is not going to punish someone simply for choosing not to worship said God, for example - because God has no interest in coerced worship. He wants an individual to worship him out of love - love which the individual freely chooses.Paul in NIV translation writes: As a metaphor, the first action of choice must have been foreknown by God...surely He did not need to have a Plan B as He is all-knowing, right? 2 Cor 9:7-- Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.Parasomnium adds a bit of spice to the mix with some observations: Parasomnium, in Post#22 writes: Paul addressed this issue. The Bible cannot be God's law, because God's law was carved in two stone tablets and nobody knows where they are. Is it, or is it not true that the Bible is made of paper and if you carve into paper, you cut it up and it becomes useless and you can't read what it says? So the Bible cannot be God's law, because if you carve into the Bible, which is made of paper, you cut it up and it becomes useless and you can't read what it says. It's a lie that creationists have come up with in their imaginations. So, how do you know God's law?Paul in NIV writes: It is not the words on the paper. It is the word in the heart. But lets not drift too far away from our original topic!
2 Cor 3:2-3--You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. jaywill,referring to A & E writes: What did God think? Surely God foreknew that this would happen,did He not? (Discussing the parable as a metaphor yet as reality) The only thing they were instructed on was what not to take into them as food. And in that one thing they disobeyed. And they were corrupted and polluted as a result. The were joined to Satan. They were Satanified.The central food which they were suppose to take was of the tree that was in the middle of the garden. That was the tree of life. God desired to dispense into Adam and Eve His divine and uncreated eternal life. Instead of the man being "Godified" he was "Satanified." robinrohan writes: Robin is a quick wit and is clever with words! I never saw or heard that word "Satanified" before. How is it pronounced? I suppose the accent is on the second "a"? If so, "Satanified" would rhyme with "Sudanified" (somebody who has lived and grown accustomed to the country of Sudan). Back to our topic, though.
Holmes writes: It (The A & E Parable) is not a literal statement, and neither is it a discussion of how humans were tested and so became sinful. To me it is a fable showing that the end of happiness in life is pretense to knowledge of good and evil. That is when humans play god, and judge the world based on their own criteria, rather than simply living and accepting the world as it is. Everything in life is made worse and eternal life would be just a greater extension of hell. One truly loses paradise. Talk to me, Jaywill. I know about you by reading your posts. Tell me a bit about why you believe what you do. Where did you learn it from? What do you feel that God is telling you to say to the audience at EvC? I want to encourage you to get to know your audience. Talk to us, not at us. This message has been edited by Phat, 12-16-2005 06:44 AM Nature is an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference nowhere. Pensées (1670) We arrive at truth, not by reason only, but also by the heart.Pensées (1670) Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.Holy Spirit--speaking through the Apostle Paul
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hello, All. Here is my original topic reprinted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------- NIV writes: This parable has appeared in many forms and in many debates throughout many threads in this forum and other forums. I wished to add a few assertions to the mix (of this endless debate) Gen 2:9-In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:15-17-The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." 1) Free will would not exist were we never to have fallen. I believe this because were we in communion, there would be no need for free will as communion was the only decision needed. Once you catch a cab, you no longer drive. 2) God knew that humans would behave as they did. The Fall was no surprise to God. 3) Genesis need not be literal. Symbolism does not refute the overall truth of God. (Nor do metaphors, nor do parables)IMHO --------------------------------------------------------------------Rrhain has had some interesting insights into the nature of God at this topic. While I see a good Bible Study as a faith based discussion, (In other words, only believers need attend....) Rrhain brings up the other side of the coin in this well written reply. I would assert that a good Bible Study involves a unified "Spirit" and that basically there is really no need for any arguments. In Bible Studies that I have attended at church, most folks readily agree with each other and iron sharpens iron as we collectively grow in our collective interpretations---be they actual scripture or be they based in the traditions of charismatic or fundamentalist interpretations. To be sure, any academic challenges, questions, or logical and empirical studies of the interpretation of the text belong in Bible Accuracy and Innerrency. IMHO, that is. (Pretend like this discussion is going on in a big room, and that coffee and doughnuts are outside in the foyer. The choir can be heard practicing in the upstairs loft! ) Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
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