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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Bible Study Cover to Cover | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bailey Member (Idle past 4399 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange jaywill.
I hope your holiday was blessed ... Part of your response seems more emotional ... Your caricature of 'original satanified filthy sinful pig' seems more your emotional resentment of the doctrine of the fall of man. lol - although you may be correct in noting a certain passion involved in my blathering at times and while I admittedly exercise a generous bit of sarcasm, there is no need to trivialize, or mistake, various attempts to emphasize particular points, as simply emotional drivel. Even before I began to see, I had to forgive to open my eyes.
The fact that man was, as I say, Satanified, does not mean that there is nothing good in man. That is true. I will boldly take this realization one step further and assert that man is not 'satanified' as you say.
He is like damaged goods. Much more like a work of art in progress ... That's not to say there won't be casualities, but maybe rather that nature is casual and, at times, causal.
Think of a radio which has been discarded into the gutter. Instead of playing music it plays only static noise because of its malfunction. Yes, this is reminiscent of few exchanges thus far ... lol Seriously, this type of behavior you describe here is the behavior Yeshua exposed within various religious sects. I can see the point in that regard.
The creation of man itself was pronounced as "very good". So even in fallen humans there is something of a residue of the good creation left. Perhaps you are right - for instance, it doesn't seem as though all religious practitioners, or even non-religious people, have been thoroughly depleted of righteousness.
Now I will address your other interesting point: Yes, Jesus teaching about the need for inward moral cleansing was put forth to counter festidious rules about hand washing. That is true. Festidious rules about hand washing? These were veiwed by many Judeans as sacred ceremonial cleansing rituals, albeit perhaps unnecessary in the end of the matter. Nevertheless, these were oral rabbinic traditions that had been extracted from the Torah by those who usurped the authority of Moshe. Yet, in a unique way, to make light of them is to make light of the 'original filthy sinner' theory, so - carry on.
This does not render the disobedient eating of the TOKGE as not a historical fall of man into sin. It could be that the tree represented a line over which Adam must not cross. When he did his world and his being were invaded by the evil spirit. Your story is seemingly about how filthy satanified sinners go on a rebellious rampage, poopin' in God's Garden and standing in opposition to their Creator 'til the end of time, while the one that I suggest the Bible has presented appears to be more about how and why the Almighty permits, empowers and encourages the Lovebird's, since they are one, to finally stomp usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion in the head. This is simplistic, yet it begins to get the point across. So basically, the standard theory apparently has faith that mankind has willingly joined forces with a defective cherubim and is in staunch opposition to God, while the opposing theory has more faith that the Almighty Father has joined forces with His children, Whom He Loves, against the forces of naivety and mischief; otherwise known as usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion. I do not mean to discard your appeal to Paul, but that is a matter for a future post as well; in the meantime, I hope you will understand that I cannot place various ramblings which have been attributed to him, however heartfelt and poetic, in the same light as the declarations that have been attributed to Yeshua HaMashiach, anymore than you can replace the esteemed Paul's blathering with mine own. I would also encourage you to take heed and beware of the leverage, or rather leaven, of the Pharisees. I hope to post something that may better clarify our positions soon.
I do not pretend to understand everything about this. Neither do I brother jaywill ... Neither do I. One Love Edited by Bailey, : sp. Edited by Bailey, : grammar Edited by Bailey, : grammar/title Edited by Bailey, : sp. Edited by Bailey, : sp. I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe ... Tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker. Why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself? Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange jaywill. I hope your holiday was blessed ... Thankyou. Hope the same for you.
The fact that man was, as I say, Satanified, does not mean that there is nothing good in man. Well, "Satanified" is not a phrase in the Bible. However, it is a good word to explain the Adam's descendents were joined to God's enemy. In analysing the condition of the sinners Paul speaks of SIN like a personified evil thing. It deceives. It takes opportunity. It rebels on general principle. In Romans 7 sin is personified to the point that we could say that sin is just Satan operating in the fallen man. However, this does not mean that Satan has no objective existence apart from man.
"For sin will not lord it over you, ..." (v.14) The lording of sin personifies sin into a virtual person. This person should be thought of as Satan. For he is "the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience" (See Eph. 2:2)
" ... sin seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind ... (v.8) Here sin is seizing the opportunity like a thinking and deciding evil personage. Here also sin is working something evil out.
" ... sin revived and I died " (v.9) Sin revived, woke up, came to life, became active. This is a personification of sin by the apostle. On this ground I say that sin in man is the Satanification of man.
"For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me." (v.11) Here the personified force of sin seizes opportunity and deceives. It is acting as a evil deceiving, opportunistic murderer. So some of us regard sin in man as the Satanification of man.
" ... sin working out death in me ..." (v.13) " ... that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." (v.13) Sin becomes one working out some evil cause in man. Sin becomes itself exceedingly sinful. Sin is personified. Who else but Satan could sin really represent ?
" ... it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.17) Compare this to Galatians 2:20 where it is no longer Paul who lives but Christ who lives in Paul. The Christification of man is the defeat of the Satanification of man. Satan ran ahead of God and imitated God's eternal purpose to dwell in man. The evil spirit is operating in the sons of disobedience.
Baily: That is true. I will boldly take this realization one step further and assert that man is not 'satanified' as you say. He is like damaged goods. Much more like a work of art in progress ...
But the progress of man is a negative progress. He is sliding down. This is why the apostle speaks of the old man which is in the process of "being corrupted".
" That you put off as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit." (Eph. 4:22) "The old man is of Adam, who was created by God but became fallen through sin. The article [lust of THE deceit] here is emphatic, and THE DECEIT refers, to the deceiver, Satan, from whom come the lusts of the corrupted old man." (footnote 22(3,4) RcV on Eph. 4:22) The book of Revelation portrays the grapes of wrath as a crop ripening unto evil and not good.
"And another angel came out of the altar, he who has authority over fire, and he cried with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth your sharp sicke and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fullu ripened. And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the fury of God." (Rev. 14:18,19) The sinners on the earth, unrepentent and unsaved, are depicted as a vine of grapes ripening to judgment. They are progressing to be more and more evil. The days of Noah were a preview of the natural progression of mankind apart from Christ's redemption and God's salvation. It is true that the presents of the church is the presence of the salt of the earth, keeping the rotting society from total corruption. The Gospel has a preservative effect on human society to slow the downward decline into degradation. I must stop here before I have a technical problem.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
That's not to say there won't be casualities, but maybe rather that nature is casual and, at times, causal. I think Evolution postulates that man is improving. Goodness is always what comes next. But the Bible shows man falling away, lower and lower from goodness. The grapes of divine wrath are ripening for judgment which can eventually no longer be postponed. So we need to be saved in Christ. (Bible Study reveals this).
Perhaps you are right - for instance, it doesn't seem as though all religious practitioners, or even non-religious people, have been thoroughly depleted of righteousness. Yes. Man still has a conscience and some self control over himself.
Festidious rules about hand washing? These were veiwed by many Judeans as sacred ceremonial cleansing rituals, albeit perhaps unnecessary in the end of the matter. Nevertheless, these were oral rabbinic traditions that had been extracted from the Torah by those who usurped the authority of Moshe. Yet, in a unique way, to make light of them is to make light of the 'original filthy sinner' theory, so - carry on. Not sure I follow here.
Your story is seemingly about how filthy satanified sinners go on a rebellious rampage, poopin' in God's Garden and standing in opposition to their Creator 'til the end of time, while the one that I suggest the Bible has presented appears to be more about how and why the Almighty permits, empowers and encourages the Lovebird's, since they are one, to finally stomp usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion in the head. This is simplistic, yet it begins to get the point across. To be fallen into sin did make man filthy. I think the Bible is clear about that. It is also true that Jesus Christ is the Head of the redeemed humanity which will crush Satan underfoot for God's purpose. Without Christ they never could. They may only BE stomped by the enemy. Christ gave God's people the ground to fight the spiritual warfare and win.
So basically, the standard theory apparently has faith that mankind has willingly joined forces with a defective cherubim and is in staunch opposition to God,
That is what has happened. We became enemies of God. But in Christ we can be reconciled and saved in His life.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10) For Satan there is no longer ANY reconcilation. Perhaps in the ancient past he had his chance, perhaps. But now there is no destination for Satan but eternal perdition. He wants to take as many with him as he can. But we can be reconciled out of our enemy status by the redemptive death of Christ. And "much more" we can be saved in character, life, behavior in the whole realm and sphere of His divine life. This is what Bible Study reveals. It is not just my preaching.
while the opposing theory has more faith that the Almighty Father has joined forces with His children, Whom He Loves, against the forces of naivety and mischief; otherwise known as usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion. First He had to die on the cross for our redemption. The passage I just quoted said that we were ENEMIES of God. Reconciliation means to take enemies and bring them together with the enmity put away. Do you recall that in the Old Testament God warned of sinning Israel this:
"Hence, the Lord Jehovah of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: Ah, I will ease Myself of My advasaries, And I will avenge Myself of My enemies." (Isaiah 1:24) As fallen and Satanified human beings we became enemies of God. He has acted to reconcile all men and women in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus.
I do not mean to discard your appeal to Paul, but that is a matter for a future post as well; in the meantime, I hope you will understand that I cannot place various ramblings which have been attributed to him, however heartfelt and poetic, in the same light as the declarations that have been attributed to Yeshua HaMashiach, anymore than you can replace the esteemed Paul's blathering with mine own. I would also encourage you to take heed and beware of the leverage, or rather leaven, of the Pharisees.
You lose much if you discard the writings of the Lord's apostle.
I hope to post something that may better clarify our positions soon.
Don't be tricked by the "Paul messed everything up" crowd.
I do not pretend to understand everything about this. Neither do I brother jaywill ... Neither do I. One Love
I hope we are brothers in Christ who is Lord, the resurrected Son of God. My God is the Man Jesus. Do you still consider me a brother in Christ ? If so "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit."
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3024 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
I appreciate that Christians interpret the whole OT through a NT lens, as Muslims interpret them both through a Qu'ranic lens. Yes, Christians interpret the OT thru the NT lens. We can do no other because of what Jesus said in John 16,
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. What boggles the mind of Christians is how unbelievers think they can understand the OT or the NT without entering into relationship with the God of the Bible wherein He discloses Himself to you.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4399 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange jaywill.
Don't have much time, but I wanted to get back to this. Sorry for the quickened post & I hope things are well with you ... It is true that the presents of the church is the presence of the salt of the earth, keeping the rotting society from total corruption. I tend to agree with this, although I have found that my definition of 'the church' does not jive well in a corporate setting.
The Gospel has a preservative effect on human society to slow the downward decline into degradation. Again, I would like to concede, only adding that the Gospel of Yeshua HaMashiach seems to provide a much stronger preservative effect than the confused collection of Gospels that Yeshua's various usurpers attempt to provide. Consider, if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. It is a fact that the doctrine of atonement in its current state didn't even exist until the 11th century, and early believers did not have the trinitarian formulas the modern church holds so dear. What preservative effect does confusion and spiritual adultery have? Indeed, Origen, the most important christian theologian of the 2nd century, would not even be allowed in the church today by the latter devised standards. Far too many do-gooders outright dismiss the fact that no one knew Yeshua HaMashiach was going to die until He was taken away (see John 20:9 and Luke 24:20-21), and for the vast majority of His ministry, hardly anyone even knew He was HaMashiach. Yet, the bible says He preached 'the Gospel' ... What Gospel did He preach for three years if it did not include anything about His death?
Christ gave God's people the ground to fight the spiritual warfare and win. That is true. There have been many usurpers of Yeshua's authority, and many more are still at work, within the 'church' who desire to disarm the Father's children. The ones in this 'church' who realize they are not fighting the good fight must undergo metanonia or face the furious winepress ...
You lose much if you discard the writings of the Lord's apostle. I agree, but much more is lost when one leaves a hole in their pocket and overlooks the reality of the CE historical data and chooses to nullify the radical prophetic traditions canonized in scripture.
I think Evolution postulates that man is improving. Goodness is always what comes next. I have said this before, although perhaps not to you; the story of progress - that each generation is better than the one before it - looks to be about two hundred years old. These two hundred years appear to have been the most tumultuous and destructive years in the history of the planet, with the possible exception of the venomously murderous Inquisition that was presented in the name of Yeshua by His various usurpers.
But the Bible shows man falling away, lower and lower from goodness. And here we part ways ... The Bible does not appear to me to provide a clear picture of man falling, lower and lower, away from goodness at all. However, it does paint a fairly nice picture of religious and government entities undergoing the process you suggest. In fact, the hiStory of civilization does not appear to be a story of progress in very many ways, but a story of continuous decline in the government of religion shines through like a rainbow after the rain. It is not every individual man, but rather society collectively, that appears to be degrading; civilization and society at large are on the leash of government and religious aggression. Some, who do not take pride in an assemblence of coherency, may say this outcome is the result of more men having been evil than having been good. That is likely bullshit. Remember: beta males will not fight back and are often forgotten because the victors, alpha males, scribe their fanciful versions of embellished hiStory. One alpha male can produce the aggressive force of many betas and as this dynamic becomes more readily understood by religious practitioners, the convoluted doctrine of 'original sin' will wither away just like any ol' dead fig tree would. In the beginning we have Abel and Seth, who may both be viewed as beta males, and then thousands of years later, by the time we get to the synoptics, we are presented with many others who are comparably submissive straight away. Now, another couple thousand years later we find many who would not dare be called a 'Christian', after learning what such a term as come to be defined as to many people, yet many of these fine folk adore Yeshua and His Way and would give you the very shirt right off their back if they thought it could help you. That is the thing though; these folk aren't circumsing their behavior for a heavenly reward or to get into God's good graces. They have already resolved themselves to the fires of hell, yet, as unknowing children of God, they have chosen to serve the hungry, homeless and widowed. I tell you the truth: they will pass judgement on those who claim to be children of God, yet do not act in a similar fashion and our friend Paul confirms that fact. There has been no steady degradation in man, but instead, rather simply, an apparent increase in the aggressive force of alpha males and an equivocally apparent increase in the resolve of the beta male. It should be apparent that it is the sheer force, and I do not mean in numbers - but rather in terms of the aggression, of the alpha males that has overpowered the beta males and apparently produced a fertile soil for storytelling. These stories of 'man's inherent sinful nature' seems to cleverly give the illusion that 'all men are satanified by default'. It is all but obvious that such blasphemy is not in accord with reality, for if it was, more children would scorn puppies and kittens instead of adoring them and it has been my experience while traveling the earth that such a scenario is indeed not the case. Usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion cannot snatch any man from the Father's hand, but any man can step away from the Father and the Way of Yeshua HaMashiach; this is the choice every person makes. You should know there is only one way to foul up our day of discernment, and that is by war mongering against the Ruach HaKodesh ...
The grapes of divine wrath are ripening for judgment which can eventually no longer be postponed. It does, indeed, smell like rain ...
So we need to be saved in Christ. Everybody has already been saved jaywill - that is the Gospel. All they can do now is attempt to kill themselves by warring against an invincible ally ...
hope we are brothers in Christ who is Lord, the resurrected Son of God. My God is the Man Jesus. Do you still consider me a brother in Christ ? If so "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit."
lol - I have not come across too many fundamentalists that want me for a brother! I hope we are brothers too brutha jay. If you love the Father with all your heart, all of your being and all of your force, and you love every other human as you love yourself - we are brothers in the Spirit of Yeshua HaMashiach. May peace rest upon you. One Love I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe ... Tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker. Why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself? Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Numbers 1: Yahweh to Moses: Take a census of the entire Israelite community. Take names of men over twenty who can fight in an army because there is going to be some ass kicking..
The men who can fight and are over twenty:
The Levites, are exempt. They don't need to go to war. What was that? This document was written by Levites? Is someone over there suggesting that this is a classic piece of early priestly corruption/convenient laws? Number 2: Camping structure:
Numbers 3: Saith the Lord: The Levites are awesome. Count all of them over a month old with Y Chromosomes. This goes into how they are to camp around the Tabernacle (essentially a 'zoomed in' version of the above diagram concerning only the Levi tribe and their responsibilities). Numbers 4: Yahweh to Moses and Aaron: Count the Kohathite gang of Levites between 30-50 (men only). You see, the other Levites will do all the careful wrapping up of the holy stuff when the camp moves and the Kohathites will carry them. Make sure they are covered properly though, if the Kohathites touch the holy items, they will die. In fact, they can't even look at them or they will die: there were 2,750 of them. Also, count the same demographic of Gershonites - their duty is to bring the curtains in. There were 2,630 of them. And the Merarites whose duty is to carry the frames, poles, tent pegs ropes and related equipment. There were 3,200 of them. And that, is apparently that: a total of 8,580. Numbers 5: Yahweh to Moses - kick out those with infectious diseases or who are ceremoniously unclean.If you wrong another, you must confess, and repay the victim + 20% - if there is nobody who can be repaid the money goes to the priests as well as a ram for sacrifice. What he gives to the priest belongs to the priest. If a man suspects his wife of infidelity: make a jealousy offering and a reminder offering. Then a priest will give the wife some cursed water. If the woman is innocent she won't die because god will preserve her. quote:7 Numbers 6: On becoming a Nazarite (a jewish Ascetic): not drinking, touching the dead, cutting the hair and what to do in one inadvertantly breaks the vow (sacrifices, cutting and burning own hair etc). Numbers 7: The Tabernacle is completed and consecrated. The heads of the tribes present oxen (every other leader presents a cart too). Conveniently God says that the gifts should be given to the Levites. But of course, the Levites weren't involved in making that decision or writing this book. No sir. They get distributed among the various gangs of Levites, but the Kohathites did not get anything - since they have to carry all the Holy stuff around and it shouldn't be done by beasts of burden. I'm told that numbers gets good. So I'm sticking with it, but it starts pretty poorly. Damn priestly source. There follows about 70 verses(!) of boring stuff which can be summarised with
quote: As well as lots and lots of animal sacrifices: The total number of animals for the burnt offering came to twelve young bulls, twelve rams and twelve male lambs a year old, together with their grain offering. Twelve male goats were used for the sin offering.The total number of animals for the sacrifice of the fellowship offering came to twenty-four oxen, sixty rams, sixty male goats and sixty male lambs a year old. These were the offerings for the dedication of the altar after it was anointed. Numbers 8: Yahweh to Moses:Tell Aaron to set the lighting up. Purify the Levites. The Levites are mine. I take them instead of the firstborn which are by rights mine between the ages of 25 - 50. Moses: Done and done. Numbers 9: In the wilderness of Sinai... Yahweh to Moses (are we noticing a pattern?): Celebrate Passover.Moses: OK. Some people: Moses, we cannot celebrate passover because we are unclean on account of a dead body.Moses: Hang on a sec. God? Yahweh: Even if you or your descendants are away on a trip or are unclean on account of a dead body you can celebrate Passover. Refusal to take part will result in that person being 'cut off'. Oh, and foreigners can celebrate Passover - but they must follow all of the rules! And Yahweh hung around in cloud form, at night it looked like fire. Whenever the cloud lifted, the Israelites would move on, whenever it dropped they would set up camp. Then the cloud lifted and left Sinai for the wilderness of Paran (possibly the Negev desert). Numbers 10: Yahweh to Moses: Make silver trumpets to signal setting out and community meetings. Also in battle. And feasts. Moses: Let us go to the promised Land. Hobab - I promise good things for you.Hobab, son of a Midianite: Nah, I'm going home. Moses: Please don't. And then they set off. Wait wait wait. You can't introduce a new character, create a dramatic tension and then not resolve it. Is Hobab going with them or not? Gargh! Numbers 11:Israelites: Whine whine moan moan. Yahweh: WRATH! Fire! Burning of the camp! Moses: Calm down. Calm down. Yahweh: Fine. And that's why Taberah is called Taberah (which means 'burning'), good old Aetiology Israelites: In Egypt we used to have free fish, cucumbers and stuff. No we just have this crappy manna. Oy, what we wouldn't give for a melon. This manna is like coriander seed. Moses to Yahweh: Dude - the people are complaining, why have you put me in this position that I have to deal with this? Actually there is some geniune Pathos here, so in all seriousness:
quote: Yahweh: Bring me seventy elders and I will take the prophetic spirit, the breath of God, the wind of heaven, the Holy Spirit from you and spread it amongst the elders. Moses: Thank y- Yahweh: I haven't finished. Tell the people that they should consecrate themselves for they will eat meat, for I heard their cries! Moses: Thank y- Yahweh: They will eat so much meat it will come out of their nose! (Num 11:20) Moses: There are 600,000 men here, where are you going to get all that meat from? Yahweh: I am the Lord your God, idiot. And so the elders turned up at the Meeting Tent and Yahweh gave them the spirity and prophesised. But two guys did not turn up and this freaked out somebody when they began spontaneously prophesising (because the spirit went to them too) and Moses calmed it all down. Then suddenly lots of Quail turned up. LOTS of quail. The whole place was 3 foot deep with fucking Quail, a man would have to walk over a whole day before he'd get out of the metre high pile Quail. Why have I never heard of the miracle of the ludicrous Quail before? But all those that ate of the Quail were struck with a plague by good old Yahweh. And that is why this place is called Kibroth Hattaavah (Graves of Craving). Incidentally - this might actually be the same place as Taberah - since later accounts don't consistently list Taberah as being part of Moses' journey to the promised land (though the Deuteronomist does...), so the issue is not concrete. Numbers 12: So Miriam and Aaron start bitching about Moses being the one who gets to speak with Yahweh. So Yahweh gives Miriam a week long bout of a horrific skin disease.
quote: Numbers 13: Moses organises it so that one guy from each tribe goes on a scouting/espionage type mission checking out the land of Canaan. Check out if the land is fertile, if the people are strong and all that jazz. The scouts went through a valley and found grapes so they called it the Valley of Grapes/things that hand like grapes/figs etc (aka the Valley of Eshcol). They returned forty days later, "It's a land of milk and honey! Behold - Grapes!" Unfortunately they are big and strong. There are Amalekites / Hittites / Jebusites / Amorites / Canaanites Said Caleb, one of the spies: But we can take 'em - one at a time or all at once. Said the rest of the spies: Are you nuts? And so the rest of the spies spread rumours that exaggerated how strong they were by saying that amongst them include the Nephilim (or rather the Anakites, descendants of the Nephilim since the flood killed all of the Nephilim) essentially these guys were just giants. Numbers 14: And a great moaning and complaining and whining went up amongst the Israelites: If only we had died in Egypt! And yea, they (including Caleb) took Moses and Aaron threw them facedown into the sand and tore their clothes off them and began to debate stoning them, deciding on a new leader and heading back to Egypt. Yahweh intervenes: I should give all these people a terrible and deadly plague, and have the descendants of Moses be raised as a great nation. Moses: No, no no. Remember we went over this in Exodus: If you do that the other nations will laugh at you, they will say "Yahweh was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert." Yahweh: Oh yeah, forgot about that. Fine, but nobody that has shown me contempt will see the land of milk and honey!
quote:Then Yahweh kills the spies that created the false rumours and who sowed discontent. The Israelites got annoyed and moved to attack the residents of the land that had been promised them, even though the Ark remained and the Tent of Meeting was not broken up. They were defeated by the Amalakites and Canaanites. Numbers 15: Yahweh to Moses: When you do get to land I'm giving you, you must practice a rigid regime of sacrifices. This was definitely written before you got there. This is not retrodiction. No sir. Oh, and foriegners, if they join you, must do exactly as you do. There are also sacrifice rules for should a person accidentally commit a moral sin. One day, a man was gathering wood on the Sabbath. The good Israelites didn't know what to do with him. Moses cleared things up: He obviously must be executed by the whole community lobbing stones at him. To avoid forgetting about the commandment you should wear tassles. Because that makes a lot of sense. Numbers 16: Another revolt (despite the public plagues, stoning, and curses) lead by And Moses said: For Yahweh's sake! What is it with you Levites? Haven't you been favoured enough? Fine, come to the Tent of the meeting with censers and we'll ask Yahweh. Some of the leaders of the rebellion: Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us? We will not come! But Korah did come with his followers. And Yahweh said to Moses and Aaron, stand back so I can kick some heathen arse!Moses: No! Only punish the wicked, Lord! And so the sheeple were told to step away from the tents that belonged to the transgressors. And Moses said:
quote: Does anyone need to read on to learn what happens next? After the ground swallowed them up, and those that remained were burned by Yahweh's fire. None but descendants of Aaron can approach Yahweh with censors. And, then people still openly complained about all the killing and how Moses and Aaron were responsible. Yahweh, like a petulant child, instead of thinking 'Hey, maybe they have a point, it does look like I am treating them like shit, instead killed 14,700 people from the plague. He killed 14,700 people. For having the gall to criticise his excessive violence. !? Numbers 17: Said YHWH to Moses, Each tribe needs a staff, written upon each staff is the name of the head of the tribe. Eg the Levites' staff should have Aaron's name on it. "I have a cunning plan", says YHWH, "I will choose a leader and will miraculously make the leader's staff sprout as if it were living - that should convince everybody that that person is chosen by Me". And so they put all the staffs in the sacred Tabernacle which was really only accessible to the Levites and shockingly enough, overnight Aaron's staff blossomed into an Almond tree. Clearly there was no possible motivation for the Levites to cheat here - it certainly wouldn't pass muster in the demanding world of stage magic these days. Numbers 18: The Levites are in charge, they get a share of all the sacrifices that are made, says YHWH. Oddly, in the middle of the Chapter it says "The Lord said to Moses", this wasn't chosen as the beginning of a new chapter. Numbers 19: YHWH to Moses: Get a priest to sacrifice an unblemished cow that has never done any labour. Everyone involved must burn all of their clothes and they will be unclean until the evening. Touching dead bodies makes you unclean. If a person dies in a tent, anyone entering the tent over the following week will be unclean (as will all open containers within). YHWH details the purification ritual involving a clean person sprinking magic water over them
quote: Numbers 20: So they arrive at Midbar Tzin - the wilderness of Zin (which might be the same as the Desert of Sin from Exodus 16, but it might not). Like the Desert of Sin story, the Israelites complain about a lack of water.So Moses asks YHWH how to handle this latest grumbling. YHWH tells Moses to take his rod and strike a rock and water will come out. So he did, and it did. But, says YHWH, since you have lost your faith in me, nobody here will get to the land that I have promised you. Then they sent a message to the King of Edom asking for clearance to travel through his land, promising to keep to the highway and not even draw water from a well. Yet the King of Edom refused and threatened them with violence should they make the attempt. Then Aaron dies on a mountain for some undisclosed reason. I would have thought he'd have got a more interesting send off than:
quote: Numbers 21: The Canaanites attack! So the Israelites make a Deal with the Dev...YHWH.
quote: And so the Israelites committed a massive genocide and destroyed all of the cities. Hurrah. Then they set off, carefully avoiding Edom (after all, committing genocide on aggressors is fine, but trespassing is a faux pas). But once again the Israelites starting moaning about the food and water situation so YHWH sent snakes to bite them. But he was merciful enough to tell Moses to construct a Bronze snake statue and anybody bitten by a poisonous snake could survive just by looking at the statue. They continue their journey and there is a tantalising reference to Book of the Wars of the Lord - but unfortunately that book is completely lost. Eventually the Amorites would not let them pass even with all the provisos of not drawing water etc. The Amorites raised an army and so the Israelites commited some more genocide and took over all of their cities. Then Og, king of Bashan did the same, so the Israelites did the same. Bloody Chapter. But then, Exodus 23 told us this was going to happen, so it was only a matter of time I guess. Numbers 22: So the Israelites camped up next to the Moabites. Given their track record, the Moabites were a little worried. If the book of Genesis was in complete existence at this time, they might have been a bit put out about what the Israelites had to say about their origins as a people (The post Sodom Father-daughter incestfest with Lot).
quote: So the Moabites speak to God(s) (in the text it is elohim rather than YHWH or Adonai) trying to get God to curse the Israelites, but it refuses to do so because they are blessed. The Moabite princes are not happy with this declaration and so attempt to bribe the Shaman/Diviner/Priest who was named Balaam refused. Balaam conferred with God who said, "Go with the Princes, but only do what I say". So he got on his donkey and road off. But God got pissed off and a sword wielding Angel blocked Balaam's donkey's path and the donkey went crazy and Balaam beat the donkey: The Angel tacticaly moved around so that the donkey crushed Balaam's foot against a wall in its efforts to avoid it. **Then the donkey said - why are you beating me?** And Balaam said - I'd kill you if I had a sword! You are making a fool of me! Then YHWH 'opened Balaam's eyes' and he saw the Angel and prostrated (It was God speaking through the donkey!) The Angel then berates Balaam for beating his donkey who was doing the right thing since the Angel was actually trying to stop Balaam. "Sorry", says Balaam, "I'll go back if you want.""No no", says the Angel. "Carry on. But say only what I tell you to." So Balaam arrived and the king of Moab berated for being late and then animals were sacrificed. Numbers 23: After a bit of a to do, Balaam makes a public oracle: But instead of cursing the Israelites he Blesses them!
quote: Balak was not happy, after all he paid for a good curse! So he asked Balaam to speak with YHWH again and this time make it a curse. God replies via Balaam that he doesn't change his mind, he is not a human. And once again has Balaam give blessings to the Israelites:
quote: Balak was not happy, "maybe it would be an idea to stop blessing or cursing them. No - I have an idea, let's relocate, maybe God will curse them if we set this up elsewhere....prepare the sacrifices!" Numbers 24:Balaam is really impressed with the Israelites camp, and their martial might and he says so as part of his Oracle: quote: Balak is really annoyed and tells Balaam to go home. Balaam reminds him that he is just doing as Yahweh commands, and warns that the enemies of the Israelites will come to a sticky end:
quote: Numbers 25: The Israelite men started getting frisky with Moabite women, sacrificing to their gods and worshipping Baal. Yahweh was not happy and instructed Moses to have the leaders of these men executed. One Israelite man (called Zimri) had the gall to bring a Midianite woman (called Cozbi) to the Tent of Meeting to meet his family (there is some implication that adultery was afoot). So Aaron's grandson took a spear and executed them both (impaled them both with one single jab). This stopped a plague that had killed 24,000 people, presumably one of Yahweh's plagues. Yahweh was so impressed with Aaron's grandson (Phinehas), he made a covenant with him and his descendants. Priesthood in return for comitting genocide against the Midianites. Being an Aaronite (or Cohen), I thought priesthood was already agreed upon, but there you go. Numbers 26: It's time to count the Israelites again, says Yahweh, specifically those who can serve in the military.
And an land based inheritance was worked out according to their sizes. Numbers 27: All the male heirs to one clan vanish. The women of this clan ask Moses to give them the inheritance so that the name of the clan does not vanish. Yahweh establishes an inheritance hierarchy: Sons->Daughters->Brothers->Father's Brothers->Nearest clan relative Then Yahweh tells Moses to publically give Joshua some authority so that the people will follow him. Numbers 28: "Barbecues are a religious ritual you must regularly obey - I like the smell.", saith Yahweh. Numbers 29: "Seriously, barbecues smell awesome.", reiterates Yahweh (These two chapters discuss burnt offerings). Numbers 30: "Keep your vows. If you are a girl and you make a vow, but your father or husband objects then the vow is void. ", says Yahweh. Numbers 31: "Send 1,000 men from each tribe (that's 12 thousand) to fight the Midianites."
quote: Including Balaam, the oracle that blessed Israel three times!!!!?
quote: And burnt everything else. However, Moses was very angry that they didn't kill enough people,
quote: Kill everyone who isn't a female virgin! So here is the plunder:675,000 sheep 72,000 cattle 61,000 donkeys 32,000 virgins Numbers 32: Reubenites/Gadites say: There's perfectly good land there, why do we need to use land way over there?Moses replies: Think yourself lucky and stop complaining. Yahweh cursed us to not enter the promised land last time we moaned about what he'd given us. Now, get yourself armed up to the teeth and join in the fighting so we can get more land, and put your women into cities for defence. Reubenites/Gadites: Fair shout. Numbers 33: The journey so far: Rameses (fifteenth day of the first month)->Succoth->Etham->Pi Hahiroth->Marah ->Elim->Red Sea ->Wilderness of Sin -> Dophkah -> Alush ->Rephidim -> Wilderness of Sinai -> Kibrothhattaavah -> Hazeroth -> Rithmah -> Rimmonparez -> Libnah -> Rissah -> Kehelathah -> Shapher -> Haradah -> Makheloth -> Tahath -> Tarah -> Mithcah -> Hashmonah -> Moseroth -> Benejaakan -> Horhagidgad -> Jotbathah -> Ebronah -> Eziongaber -> Wilderness of Zin (Kadesh) -> mount Hor Then Aaron died at aged 123. mount Hor -> Zalmonah -> Punon -> Oboth -> Ijeabarim -> Dibongad ->Almondiblathaim -> Abarim -> Moab And Yahweh said - kill everyone here and take their stuff or they'll irritate you for the rest of your life. Nunmbers 34: And the borders of your land shall be from the Med to the Red to the Dead, said Yahweh. (I'm sure I'm not the only person to make that joke throughout history). And it should be divided amongst the tribes. Numbers 35: The Levites should have towns and pastureland. They should have towns of refuge where those who have killed someone may flee to.
quote: Then there seems to be a break in the text and it clarifies that cities of refuge should be for people that commit manslaughter. So what is murder, and what is manslaughter? It seems that if the intent was harm, it is murder but if there was no intent to harm it is manslaughter. So, if you throw a punch at someone, intending to hurt them, but they hit their head and die - that is murder and it is a capital offense (there needs to be more than one witness). If someone is accused of murder, they are sent to the city of refuge. If they should leave the city of refuge and the 'avenger of blood ' (a redeeming kinsman), should execute the accused it won't count as murder. An accused can only leave the city of refuge upon the death of the high priest. Numbers 36: Somebody notices that if a daughter should marry outside of a tribe, then the tribe she marries into would inherit the land of the tribe the girl belonged to. As such Yahweh says
quote: So girls must marry people within their own clan. Simple. And that's how it ends. Will probably add some images update spelling and add a few notes at some point, but my notes are spread around documents from April through to September so it is a little wonky right now and I might have missed bits. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
A series of speeches by Moses. It is called ”{spoken} Words’ in Hebrew again after the opening:
quote: Deuteronomy is the Greek for ”second law’ referring to the fact it is a second telling of the law. The setting is on the plains of Moab just before the Israelites enter the Promised Land.
Deu 1: It starts by saying this occurred on the other side of the river Jordan or 'beyond the river' meaning that it is being told from the perspective of people already in the Promised Land. Says Moses: It’s time to break camp and enter the Promsied Land. We number as many as there are stars in the sky, and here’s hoping we increase in size a thousandfold. I set up judges to rule over your disputes - and I advise you show no partiality (hearing both small and great alike). You were worried about the big guys, the Amorites, but I assure you that Yahweh will fight for you. This doubt meant that no man of that generation will see the Promised Land. I Moses am no exception to this decree. Joshua, son of Nun, will enter it and he will lead Israel. But you guys prematurely attacked, and you got beaten down. And yea did god say, ”don’t come crying to me’ (Deut 1:45).
Deu 2: Says Moses: So we went back to following directions. We were told not to provoke war, to pay for food etc. They wandered around not attacking people, being instructed to go from place to place. Then they were instructed to pass through the land of Heshbon, but because God hardened his heart (like he did with Pharaoh) he refused to allow them to pass through his land. So, with help from Yahweh, they kicked their asses (ie., We took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining )
Deu 3: Now it’s Og’s turn:
quote: (with the women and the little ones.) There follows a description of which regions to go which tribes/families. Another reference to Joshua and then a plea from Moses: please let me see the Promised Land. To which Yahweh replies ”No, never speak to me again about this’.
Deu 4: Neither add nor subtract from my commandments, says Yahweh.Moses says ”Do not forget the covenant - I will die in this land but you are about to cross over and take possession of it. Yahweh is a jealous consuming fire. If you become corrupted and start worshiping idols you will be destroyed, scattered among the peoples.’ Moses continues: ”Yahweh is awesome and has done amazing things that no other god has been said to do.’ Then Moses set aside three cities (Bezer, Ramoth and Golan) for where manslaughterers can go to save his life (See also: Numbers 35)
Deu 5: This appears to be roughly the start of a new speech. It jumps straight into the ten commandments (see Exodus 20).1: No other gods before me 2: No making of idols - Do not bow to idols 3: Do not misuse the name of Yahweh. 4: Observe the Sabbath 5: Honour your father and your mother. 6: Don’t murder. 7: Do not commit adultery 8: Do not steal 9: No false testimony against neighbour 10: No coveting your neighbours property. No-one can hear the voice of Yahweh (except us that one time).
Deu 6: Says Moses, Put reminders up about the commandments, tie them around your hands, your foreheads, write them on doorframes and gates and so on. Fear Yahweh, take your oaths out in his nameDo not forget Yahweh Do not test Yahweh Keep the commandments Do what is right in Yahweh’s opinion. We keep these commandments so that we may prosper.
Deu 7: More bloodshed is predicted/commanded:
quote: Yahweh loves the Israelites, and will destroy anybody that hates him. If you stick to the commandments then Yahweh will keep his covenant of love, keeping you free of disease. But you must commit genocide at Yahweh’s request (Deu 7:16) and yea, thou shalt destroy them, wiping their names from heaven, their gods will burn in the fire.
Deu 8: Says Moses: In case I hadn’t mentioned it every three seconds, don’t forget that Yahweh lead in the desert for those forty years and your clothes miraculously did not wear out - so keep those commandments! The promised land will be awesome. There will be water and wheat, honey and olive oil. But after you eat - praise Yahweh. Because all this comfort is likely to cause you to forget Yahweh. If that happens, I will destroy you.
Deu 9: Continues Moses: You will have to fight Anakites (descendants of the Nephilim), but Yahweh will destroy them as a fire, annihilating them. Not because Israelites are righteous but because of the wickedness of the nations that are to be destroyed. I was awesome in the desert, that whole stone tablets from the finger of Yahweh? Remember that? Remember that cast idol thing you guys did, pissing Yahweh off? Yahweh almost destroyed you over that, but I am so great Yahweh listened to me! And that wasn’t the only time Yahweh got annoyed at you, don’t forget that!
Deu 10: Moses: So after destroying the tablets carved by the finger of Yahweh, I made some copies and I created the Ark. Love Yahweh:
quote: Remember Yahweh is fantastic and accepts no bribes, but can apparently be swayed by rhetoric. You should love foreigners (who live with you as aliens) as you were foreigners yourself.
Deu 11: Moses: Remember that your children didn’t get to see all those fantastic things that happened over the last 40 years. Observe the commandments so that you might live long in the land of milk and honey. If you follow the rules I give you you will get rain in season, grass for cattle but you will be enticed away and Yahweh will be angry and will deny these things (the author really does want to drive this point home as often as he is repeating it). Tie the commandments around your hands, bind them to your head, teach them to your children, write them on your doorframes and so on and so forth. In short (and to repeat again) Follow commands and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed.
Deu 12: Moses: So here are the laws: Destroy other religion’s alters, sacred stones and sticks, cut down their idols, wipe out their names. You will put Yahweh’s Name in a special place that He chooses and bring your burnt offerings/sacrifices/gifts etc. Do not sacrifice your burnt offerings in any old place, it must be where Yahweh’s Name is. You are free to slaughter outside of this special place, but still do not eat the blood. (It is thought that this might have put the wandering Levites out of business, so):
quote: Do not be ensnared to follow other gods. Do not add nor diminish from the things I command you.
Deu 13: If a prophet comes, or a dreamer and he makes miracles occur - do not follow him if he suggests following other gods. In fact, you should kill said prophet. Indeed, even if your brother, your son, your daughter, your wife or a friend suggests following other gods: Kill them without pity with stones. You should strike the first blow, with the rest of the people following soon after. If one of your cities starts worshiping other gods. Take the sword to them, and destroy it completely, including the cattle -burning all the spoils.
Deu 14: Eat only clean animals. Not the unclean (eg: rabbits and camels) (see Leviticus 11). You can’t eat animals that are found dead, but you can sell it to a foreigner. You are holy to Yahweh. And tithe, some of the tithe should go towards the Levites who have no property or inheritance of their own.
Deu 15: All debts should be cancelled at the end of every seven years . except for foreigners who you can require payment from. If you fully obey Yahweh there will be no poor among you. You will lend to many nations, but borrow from none. Don’t deny loans just because the seven years deadline is near. Don’t even think about it. There will always be poor (which is it, there will be no poor, or there will always be poor? Maybe it is suggesting that Yahweh doesn't expect full obedience to ever happen.) so open your hand to them. Servants/slaves from the Israelites will be freed after seven years, and they will not be released empty handed (note: this generosity is an addition to the Exodus rules covering slavery release). Unless he happens to like you, then you can pierce his ear and he will be a slave to you forever. (see Exodus 21) Firstborn males of your livestock will be sanctified to Yahweh unless it is blind or lame.
Deu 16: Celebrate Passover (eating unleavened bread as did those that had to leave Egypt in haste)Celebrate the Feast of Weeks Rejoice before Yahweh at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name (Yahweh is becoming increasingly abstract, rather than literally sitting on a throne in the Tabernacle, now his Name dwells in the temple. Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Do not pervert the course of justice or take bribes. Do not set up Asherah poles or sacred stones since Yahweh hates these.
Deu 17: Again, do not sacrifice flawed livestock. If anyone is found doing evil in Yahweh’s eyes (eg., worshipping other gods or the sun or the moon or the stars) stone them to death. This should be done only on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Not just one. The witnesses should cast the first stones.If it is too complicated, speak to a Levite or a judge to get a verdict. You must adhere to their decisions. Showing contempt to a judge or priest is punishable by . .death. Only appoint brother Israelites to be King who is to be modest and humble. Deu 18: The Levites are to live on the offerings to Yahweh, they have no allotment or inheritance (I can see why Deuteronomy is considered to have been written by a non-priestly source).Let none of you sacrifice his child, practice divination, sorcery, interpret omens, engage in witchcraft, cast spells, or consult the dead. Any prophets that speak in the name of other gods or presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say: put them to death. Deu 19: Again, set aside three cities so that anyone who kills a man unintentionally may flee there. If someone kills in anger or hatred, then he can be handed over to the blood avenger to die. Show him no pity.If a witness is proven to be a liar, then do unto him that which he would have had done to his brother he lied about. This will guarantee nobody lies. quote: Deu 20: And priests and officers shall give rousing speeches before the battles. And they shall send home those that have not properly dedicated their property or are fainthearted.You can make an offer peace to the people you are about to crush. If they accept, they shall go into forced labour. You may take the livestock and the children and women as plunder for yourselves when attacking the cities ”at a distance’. But the cities of the nations that Yahweh is giving you - leave no plunder or survivors. Don’t cut down fruit trees for siege engines. Deu 21: If someone is murdered, and it is not known who the murderer is. Break the neck of a cow as atonement for the blood of the innocent.If you notice a beautiful woman among the captives, you may take her as your wife. Shave her hair and trim her nails. Allow her a month mourning and then she is yours. If you are not pleased with her, let her go - she is not a slave. You must give right of the firstborn (double share) to your actual firstborn, even if that firstborn was from a wife that you do not love. If you have a rebellious son, stone him to death. If you hang someone, be sure to bury him that same day since he is under God’s curse. Deu 22: If you come across stray livestock, take it back to the owner or keep it until the owner comes looking. This applies to any lost property.Do not be a transvestite. If you come upon a bird’s nest and the mother is sitting on the young/eggs you may take the young or the eggs but leave the mother so that you may have a long life(!?) Build parapets around the roof so you are not morally culpable if someone falls from your roof. Do not plant two kinds of seed in the vineyard or the fruits and crops will be forfeited. Do not plow with an ox and a donkey together Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together If you marry someone and dislike them and slander their name as not being a virgin you must stay married and pay a fine to the girls father. But if the charge is true (meaning it can't be proven she was a virgin with the appropriate bloody sheets) then the woman must be stoned to death.Adultery is punishable by death. If a man sleeps with a virgin who is betrothed to another in a town they shall be both stoned to death since she didn’t cry out for help. If it happens in the countryside where there was no one to rescue her, then just the man should be stoned. If a man rapes a virgin who is not betrothed he should pay a fine and marry the girl. Deu 23: No castrated men may enter the assembly of YahwehNo one born out wedlock or their descendants to the TENTH generation (which is like two centuries!) shall enter the assembly of Yahweh. No Ammonites or Moabites (to the tenth generation) shall enter the Assembly of Yahweh (spoiler alert: Unless his name is David) Be cool with Edomites and Egyptians: The third generation born to them may enter the assembly of Yahweh. If a man becomes unclean while camping against the enemy, he should leave the camp. Cover up your crap. Give refuge to slaves. Do not become a prostitute. Do not bring the earnings of prostitution into the house of Yahweh. Do not charge interest (to other Israelites) Keep your promises. Deu 24: You can’t marry someone you’ve previously divorced.Newlywed males don’t have to go to war for 1 year. Do not take a man’s livelihood as security for a loan. Kidnapping another Israelite or enslaving him is punishable by death. Don’t take advantage of hired men who are poor, pay them quickly since they are counting on it. Fathers should not be executed for their child’s sin nor the other way around. Let the leavings of your harvest stay there for the aliens, and the needy. Again, to reiterate myself for the billionth time: You were slaves in Egypt, that is why. Deu 25: Don’t give someone more than 40 lashes.Do not muzzle an ox while it treading the grain. A man shall marry his brother’s wife if the brother dies and they live together - their first son will carry the dead brother’s name. If the brother refuses, spit on his shoes and that man’s line shall forever be known as The Family With No Shoes (or similar): quote: If a wife defends her husband by grabbing the nuts of the man he is fighting with - cut off her hand without pity.Be honest with your weights and measures. Deu 26: When you enter the Promised Land take some of the firstfruits of your produce to the place that Yahweh will choose as a dwelling for his name and make a lengthy declaration about coming from Egypt.Remember to tithe 10 percent for the benefit of the Levites, the aliens, the fatherless and the widow. And then declare to Yahweh that that is what you have done. Deu 27: This is describing a covenant renewal ritual of some kind. I am informed that these kinds of ceremonies were common practice amongst those that conquer at supposed divine will. Set up some large stones, cover them in plaster write the words of the law onto them and place them on Mount Ebal. Make an alter of stones (no iron tools allowed) and make sacrifices.These tribes will bless the people from Mount Gerizim Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Benjamin These tribes will pronounce the curses from Mount Ebal Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphatali Cursed be he who:Carves an image or casts an idol Dishonours his parents Moves a boundary stone Leads the blind astray Withholds justice from a foreigner, fatherless or widow. Sleeps with his father’s wife Has sex with any animal Sleeps with his sister (the daughter of either parent) Sleeps with his mother-in-law Kills his neighbour secretly. Kills for payment. Does not uphold The Law Deu 28: Obey Yahweh and follow the commands carefully. Blessings will come to you:Your enemies will be defeated Your barns and anything you put your hand to will be blessed. You will be established as the holy people and everyone else will know it. Abundant prosperity (children, livestock and crops) You will receive rain in its season. You will always be at the top, never the bottom. If you disobey then curses will be upon you: You will be cursed in the city and the country,You will be on the bottom, not the top. Your kneading will be cursed. Your children, your livestock and your crops will be cursed until you are ruined. You will be plagued with diseases. The sky will be bronze, the ground: iron. Rain will turn to dust. Your enemies will defeat you. Your carcasses will be bird food. You’ll have boils and festering sores. Madness, blindness and confusion You will be unsuccessful in everything you do, you will be oppressed and robbed. Your betrothed will be raped. Your house will be unlived in, your vineyard will never be enjoyed. Your oxes will not feed you, your donkeys stolen, your sheep taken by enemies, your children given to other nations. You will suffer nothing but cruel oppression for all your days and it will drive you insane. You will become an object of scorn and ridicule. The locusts will devour your crops. And so on. God is a pretty harsh bastard, that's arguably a worse set of curses than Adam and Eve received. The last curse is nothworthy:
quote: There are notable Assyrian influences here. The treaties of Esarhaddon are structured quite similarly to the Deuteronomic approach, including the use of curses to seal the deal. In fact, some of the curses used can be found in those Assyrian texts. I can't find any accessible versions online so I can only take expert word that that is the case.
Deu 29: This seems to be a new speech. It starts by reiterating what has be reiterated so often: Moses/Yahweh led you out of Egypt, clothes did not wear out, no new shoes were needed, you ate no bread, no wine no beer. We defeated Og, king of Bashan and divided up his lands follow the commandments for uninterrupted prosperity. Make sure nobody’s heart turns away from Yahweh. If a person thinks they can go it alone without Yahweh, Yahweh’s wrath be upon him and all the previously mentioned curses will fall upon him.
Deu 30: But if you return to obeying Yahweh - the blessings will be given back to you. Even if you have been banished to distant lands, Yahweh will gather you back. Yahweh will circumcise your hearts and will visit the curses upon your enemies instead.It’s not like the commandments are that hard. Deu 31: Says Moses: I am 120 and will not be crossing the Jordan. Yahweh will cross it ahead of you and destroy the nations before you. Joshua will cross ahead of you. Yahweh will commission Joshua as the official successor to Moses.So Yahweh appears as the good old pillar of cloud and spoke to Moses. These people will soon worship foreign gods and break the covenant with me and I will become angry and destroy them and I will hide my face. So I’m going to give you a song they can sing. Then Yahweh, spoke to Joshua, son of Nun: Be strong - you will bring the Israelites into the Promised Lands and I will be with you. Allow this book stand as a witness against you for when you all rebel.
Deu 32: The song of Moses: Starts off praising the wonderful Yahweh and how his works are perfect and he is of perfect judgement of truth and justice and righteousness.The people are a now a 'perverse and crooked generation' The people of Jacob are his and he shielded him and led him and generally looked after him in nice ways. Israel grew fat and turned to foreign gods, sacrificing to demons. Says Yahweh 'I will hide my face from them'. 'They made me jealous'. Yahweh is very angry and so will heap calamaties on them because nothing justifies calamaties than good old wrath. I will send famine and plagues, fangs and venom, yea even the sword. Foolish people. Where are your pagan gods now, bitches? Eh? How do you like that!? There is no god besides me, idiots. And so Moses finished the song and said 'So carefully follow the commandments...or else!' And then Yahweh coughed politely. 'Erm Moses...time to die! You broke faith in me, so climb the mountain. Let your eyes see the Promised Land that you will never enter. The reason can be found in Numbers 20.
Deu 33 A blessing from Moses upon various groups. It's too tedious to list them. But he wishes good things for the various tribes. It might give some insights into the possible stereotypical characters of the tribes.
Deu 34 So Moses climbs his last mountain at 120 years old, having spend most of his elderly life wandering through the desert acting as ambassador between the people and their God. He looks over the land that was Promised to his People who left Egpyt so many years ago and he dies. Tragic, really. They buried him in Moab.Then the people grieved for thirty days. Joshua was then filled with the spirit and would now be their leader. Moses was awesome, the end. Again since it is largely a repeat of the laws, there isn't much new to analyze without going deep into biblical scholarship. Apologies if I shifted from first to third person, but unlike the other books this one is mostly first person (Moses). The whole thing reads a little like the covenants of the earlier books, though the language is much better -there's more pathos I think. There some agreement that Deuteronomy was written some time after the other books of the Pentateuch. As I said, Deuteronomy is broken into what appear to be three speeches.The first is a quick recent history recap, setting the scene so to speak, on their grand entry into the Promised Land. It's not a full review, just basically relatively recent stuff that happened in Numbers The second is some more history, and an immediate forecast of their coming battles. But mostly it is filled with commandments, The Law followed by the blessings and curses. The law is slightly different than earlier versions. For instance debt slavery release now comes with a gift package, and the treatment of 'aliens' is on the whole more positive. The third speech seems to imply that evil fortune is the responsibility of the person and of the community. From what I have learned in my limited studies is that scholars tend to believe that the second speech existed first. Specifically the laws part. That these were later reframed as being a speech made by Moses. Later additions were the first speech giving a historical review and the final speech as well as the miscellaneous sections at the end(The Song, the Blessings and the Death). Another interesting thing to note is how the book ends. After all the events in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers we might anticipate that we will read about the Israelites actually entering the Promised Land. It's strange to end things the way they did, but some have suggested this represents feelings of exile from the composers/editors. And that just about exhausts what I think about Deuteronomy. Hopefully it will prove readable and of interest. I wonder if anyone else out there wants to play catchup with me and give us their views of the Bible, cover to cover.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I'm impressed Mod. What an incredible review and what an immense amount of work.
I would just like to compare your summary of Deuteronomy with a couple of passage from Leviticus. From Leviticus Chap.19
quote: We can see from this that we are to emulate the holiness of God. This is completely consistent with the message from Jesus in the Gospels and is consistent with the message of the creation story with Genesis.
quote: When Jesus says that all of the law and the prophets are dependent on loving God and loving neighbour it makes sense when we refer to that passage.
quote: When Jesus says that we are to love our enemies we can see that it was always there in the Hebrew Scriptures. Now then if we look at your commentary on Deuteronomy it is painfully obvious that the image of God that we see expressed there is completely inconsistent with the passages from Leviticus that I quoted and of course the Gospel message of Jesus. This of course means that if we understand the Bible as being essentially dictated by God we have to choose between a loving god who desires that mankind reflect that love into the world, or we can choose a loving god who is prepared to see his followers break the law of love in order to achieve what it is he desires, or we can choose a god who is prepared to go to any length to achieve recognition and power. In other words we can worship a god in our own image by making him whatever it is we want him to be. If however, we understand the Bible as a meta-narrative, and incorporating into that meta-narrative all sorts of shorter stories and teachings it all starts to fall into place. The ancient Jews were a group of nomads that were most of the time under duress from their more powerful neighbours. It would be natural for them to want to get out from under that situation and be top dog themselves for a change. Their pagan neighbours all worshipped gods that they believed gave them power and wealth. It would make sense, that even though God was speaking through their hearts and imaginations with the idea that they should love their neighbour, they would also because of retain the idea that their god would support them in battle if they were to find a way to please him. IMHO if we read the Bible as an account of God gradually revealing Himself to the world through the Jews, who like everyone else were subject to the desires for wealth, sex and power, the Bible is revealed as a collection of stories that makes sense. Again, IMHO, it isn't difficult to discern the truths that God wants us to have from the Scriptures. There are two essential messages. The first is that there is an overarching narrative from creation, to Moses, to Abraham, to the Prophets, to Jesus, to the era of the church or the "Kingdom of God' to the end of time will all creation will be made new. Secondly that mankind is called to be loving stewards of that creation. This is reflected in love or all of mankind, other creatures and for the planet itself. The acts of unselfish love are in some way the building stones that God will use to bring about this new creation in ways that we have no way of knowing. It is about following that message of love as an act of faith. If we take the fundamentalist, inerrant or literalists view of the scripture it is my view that the message that God wants us to receive becomes at the very least muddied or even lost entirely. Again, well done with your commentary. Have a great 2012.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
When Jesus says that we are to love our enemies we can see that it was always there in the Hebrew Scriptures. The passage was about residents of the Israelites land who were not Israelites. It is not about loving ones enemy. The Old Testament makes some pretty clear comments about enemies, and love isn't high on the agenda there:
quote: Their pagan neighbours all worshipped gods that they believed gave them power and wealth. It would make sense, that even though God was speaking through their hearts and imaginations with the idea that they should love their neighbour I see the word 'neighbour' as being roughly synonymous with 'fellow Israelite', not 'denizens of neighbouring cities'. Of course the New Testament puts its own spin on that, but I don't think that was how it was meant to be understood at the time.
Again, IMHO, it isn't difficult to discern the truths that God wants us to have from the Scriptures I disagree. It appears to be easy, but given how many people come to such different ideas about it I think this serves as evidence that it isn't as easy as one might believe.
Again, well done with your commentary. Have a great 2012. Cheers, and here's to you too. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Modulous writes: The passage was about residents of the Israelites land who were not Israelites. It is not about loving ones enemy. But it is about enemies. I'll requote the pertinent part.
quote: Modulous writes: The Old Testament makes some pretty clear comments about enemies, and love isn't high on the agenda there: Absolutely but that is my point. It is a narrative that contains the revelations of God along with historical accounts written with the normal cultural and personal biases showing. The OT is a collection of many books that together tell the story of God interacting with the people chosen to deliver His message of "love they neighbour" to the world. It tells the story with all the warts, failures of successes of the early Jews.
Modulous writes: I disagree. It appears to be easy, but given how many people come to such different ideas about it I think this serves as evidence that it isn't as easy as one might believe. Actually, I think that Christians would universally agree that the "love thy neighbour" message is central to the Christian faith. The problem is we still have the same problem the early Jews had. We keep trying to make God in our image to justify our human desires for wealth, sex and power, and that's one of my major problems with Biblical literalism. It allows us to paint an ambiguous picture of God that in many cases is contrary to the God we see embodied in Jesus.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But it is about enemies. I'll requote the pertinent part. What part of that is about enemies? It says 'strangers'. Strangers refer to aliens, not enemies. It is ger. Enemy is 'oyeb. And Deuteronomy talks of 'oyeb in Deu 33:27 :
quote: You should instead be looking to Exd 23:4 for evidence of a love thy enemy vibe:
quote: But it's slim pickings, and only seems to refer to personal enemies, not 'national' ones.
Actually, I think that Christians would universally agree that the "love thy neighbour" message is central to the Christian faith. I don't disagree.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Modulous writes: What part of that is about enemies? It says 'strangers'. Strangers refer to aliens, not enemies. It is ger. Enemy is 'oyeb. And Deuteronomy talks of 'oyeb in Deu 33:27 : You're right of course, but in that era anyone that didn't belong to my tribe was my enemy, (except when they could be of use to me), and for that there would be a fair number in my own tribe that I'd be very suspicious of. The only other thing that I would add is that in the call to Abraham it says that all the people on earth will be blessed through him. The point being is that we are not really to think of people as our enemies but maybe just as people who are our friends even though it doesn't appear that way right now. I know it's from the NT, but I love what Paul says about it.
quote: It's like the modern twist. Love your enemy - it'll drive him crazy. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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