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Author Topic:   Problems with Mutation and the Evolution of the Sexes
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 180 (459125)
03-04-2008 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Lyston
03-04-2008 1:05 AM


Sex v. Gender
No, there's a point.
If you're using the wrong words, then you can't look things up.
For example, I just looked in the back of my biology textbook --- 1200 pages long, and the word "gender" isn't in the index. There's plenty about sex. This is because, yes, words can vary in meaning, but biologists always say "sex", never "gender", when what they mean is "sex".
You'd find the same if you tried searching PubMed for papers that address your questions.
We just get tetchy, tell you you're using the word wrong, and then answer the question anyway. An index or a database search will not get testy, but in other ways they will be less forgiving, since you won't be able to find what you're looking for.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 121 of 180 (459204)
03-04-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Jaderis
03-04-2008 4:35 AM


And I also must say that you cannot have a discussion about the evolution of sexes/"genders" (which you most definitely alluded to in your OP with your talk of "guys" without a mate) without a discussion of the evolution of sexual reproduction ...
I think you can.
Sexual reproduction is where two organisms combine forces to produce further organisms sharing a mixture of their genotypes.
Sexes is where you have a system of two mating strains, with mating only between the two strains, not within strains, such that one mating strain (males) contributes a smaller gamete.
It is reasonable to discuss how to get from one to the other, and I think this is Lyston's question --- at least, he seemed reasonably satisfied with my answer.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 180 (459253)
03-05-2008 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Lyston
03-04-2008 10:42 PM


The Correspondence Principle
Um, maybe you missed the whole "They had to change that" part of my paraphrase. They didn't abandon the theory that everything orbited the Earth, they CHANGED it to everything in our solar system orbits the sun. They didn't abandon the theory that everything was made of four elements, they changed it as the list grew of elements grew. They didn't abandon the theory of atoms when they discovered things inside them, they changed it to electrons (I think...?).
And you said "'cos of the facts and evidence that you mentioned". You forget, they had "facts and evidence" for each of the previous theories. It was when they found out more things that they had to change them, not "abandon" them.
These are three rather different cases, and the change from creationism to evolution is a fourth. I'd be interested to discuss the subject, but it would be wildly off-topic here.
I could have "singled it out" to the theory of elemental combinations or something about psychology, but that really takes it away from the subject we are talking about.
Well, I see your point. And yet an argument which can be used against any branch of scientific knowledge with equal force seems to be an ineffective argument against any particular branch of science.
If your point might be restated as "since science changes, how can I trust any of it?" then I would reply that by some means or other you do. You are fairly sure of the existence of cells, for example. I suppose in principle tomorrow they could turn out to be a big hoax by biologists, or we could pull our helmets off and discover we've all been living in the matrix ...
Of course, some science is solider than other bits. Our knowledge of evolution ranges from the utterly solid to "We don't know, can we have ten million dollars to research that? While you wait, here is a handful of plausible guesses and some light music". To determine which bits are solid and which are not, you have to look at the particular facts that bear on the particular question.
---
Thought for the day:
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." --- Isaac Asimov

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 133 of 180 (459254)
03-05-2008 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Lyston
03-04-2008 11:24 PM


This completely throws me off. You call them asexual, but also say they require host cells. Wouldn't that make them sexual?
What a virus does is force its host to produce copies of the virus. The host's genes don't get passed on the the viruses produced, so the viruses produced by the hose can't be considered the offspring of the host.
I know its off topic, but do you guess think that the first organisms were simpler than bacteria, like viruses?
That's two questions. Simpler, yes. Like viruses, no.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 145 of 180 (459489)
03-08-2008 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Lyston
03-06-2008 7:02 PM


It's always nice to know that someone's listening.
---
Eyes ... oh good.
* rubs hands *
See you on the other thread.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 156 of 180 (463318)
04-15-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by godservant
04-15-2008 4:05 AM


Re: A Little Help
By what we know today and have observed of genetic mutations is that in the majority of cases, the mutation causes a loss of genetic information that is usually detrimental to the individual and any consecutive replications of that genetic information passed down to offspring, usually starts a downward spiral, not an upward spiral.
And we also know that detrimental mutations are less likely to undergo "consecutive replications of that genetic information", 'cos of the law of natural selection.
Maybe there's only one beneficial mutation for every thousand harmful mutations, but it's the beneficial mutation that's going to spread through the gene pool.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 157 of 180 (463319)
04-15-2008 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by godservant
04-15-2008 3:50 AM


[qs]//Have a look at the sex-lifes of ciliates such as Paramecium. Is that sexual reproduction? Are they hermaphrodites? Do they have sexes? Note that they are single-celled.
Now consider the F plasmid in E. Coli ...//
Alright, so why were they left behind in the wake of mass evolution?[/quote]
Paramecium and E. coli are still flourishing: there are more E. coli in your gut than there are humans on this planet. They were not left behind.
There is also no such thing as "mass evolution". One lineage evolving in a certain way doesn't magically make all the other lineages evolve in the same way.
In particular, Paramecium and E. coli have evolved alternatives to sexual reproduction as we understand it.
By the way, did you do what my post suggested and look them up? I bet you didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by godservant, posted 04-15-2008 3:50 AM godservant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by godservant, posted 04-15-2008 12:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 158 of 180 (463320)
04-15-2008 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by godservant
04-15-2008 3:39 AM


"Specifically, we self-replicate imperfectly. As did the first forms of life. It's these imperfections in the copying process that allow mutation and evolution to occur - otherwise all life would simply be cloned duplicates of the first life form."
Ok, I read up to this part and I had to laugh. Sorry, but which part of this sentence makes sense to you??
All of it. Which part of it go you object to?
Do you guys ever seriously believe what you say?? Or do you even bother to read what you say??
Yes, and yes.
Also, geneticists agree with what we say, or to be more accurate, we agree with them. So when you find that all the geneticists in the world agree with a statement about genetics, and it makes you, a non-geneticist, laugh, then perhaps you should spend a few minutes thinking about who's wrong about genetics: you or the geneticists.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by godservant, posted 04-15-2008 3:39 AM godservant has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 172 of 180 (463367)
04-15-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by godservant
04-15-2008 12:44 PM


Re: A Little Help
Not according the the laws of entrophy and thermodynamics
And yet, just as you can't find any geneticists who agree with you about genetics, a subject that geneticists have studied and you haven't, so also you can't find any professors of thermodynamics to agree with you about thermodynamics, which is also a subject that you also know damn all about 'cos of never having studied it.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 173 of 180 (463368)
04-15-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by godservant
04-15-2008 12:49 PM


So our guts would have had to have been there since the beginning for them to even have come to existance and flourish.
What gave you this strange idea?
Are you once more trying to talk about a subject of which you know nothing?
What would the bacteria have been when in the state of evolution had not all the genetic information already been there?
Bacteria, in the absence of genetic information telling them not to be bacteria, would be bacteria.
If you meant something else by your enquiry, I should tell you frankly that your method of putting questions is distinctly opaque. Knowing what you're talking about might help you here.
What would have been it's simplest form in the beginning allowing it to function, thrive and reproduce had it also had to evolve from lesser ingredients?
Those are all English words, and yet the order in which you have put them together conveys no meaning.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 174 of 180 (463371)
04-15-2008 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by godservant
04-15-2008 1:31 PM


Re: A Little Help is on the way.
You also need to find out what "recessive" and "dominant" mean before you try to lecture us on genetics.
You may also want to read up on the concept of "natural selection", it's fascinating.

This message is a reply to:
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