Evolution starting with a single bacterium

Any fossil evidence of?

I'll take that as a no.
I guess another question would be- is there any evidence at all of anything preceeding a prokaryote?

I would ask that you try again, I am happy with my first try. Here we are talking about chronological order in biogenesis, and you aren’t even following proper order in this discussion. This isn’t beginning well is it?You first.
I have asked two questions. You haven't even answered my first on yet.This message has been edited by XenoGenisis, 06-23-2004 03:26 AM

What organisms?

I didn't know that there were any predecessors to prokaryotes. Are you saying that there are? Were have come full circle.

I am saying I don't know. Thats why I asked in first place. Duh. And again I asked you first!

I thought that prokaryotes appear as two groups- archaea and true bacteria and that they both appear in the fossil record at the same time whole, and complete. Some guy Woese discorved them if memory serves.

If "them" WERE, there would have to some evidence of "them". Hence the first question.

Without evidence we don’t know that there are any predecessor organisms to form fossils. So I guess I you have in a way answered my question. Thanks.

Until proof presents itself, I think its safe to say they're aren't any. I don't have a problem with it.

They don’t have to exist. You assume this because of your bias.

They appear to have done just that- arise spontaneously about 4 Billion years ago. Not just one kind either. 2 kinds. Same time. Whole and complete. No evidence of anything before them. Ergo No evidence of a single progenitor for all life.Is this why you say that ...they must have existed; their descendants - all life - are proof of that.This assumes that all life descended from them. It’s a very circular reasoning.

We know for a fact that prokaryotes did. We however don’t know that anything else did. You have faith that there was something before the 2 distinct complete prokaryotes, but no proof. Why, in your mind, does there have to be a predecessor to these 2 types of prokaryotes?I will not assume that them or prokaryotes are the ancestor of all life.I didn’t call them the ancestors of all life. You did.You are saying them must exist because all must have come from them.And again we have no evidence of them. Evolution falls apart without a single progenitor. And this is what the evidence to date shows. No single progenitor.

We know they must have existed
First you said that there must be. Now you just think it’s most likely?I posted-predecessor of the first prokaryotes Circa 4.0 billion years ago Any fossil evidence of? Which you would not answer.Well, the procaryotes are the ancestors of all life we're aware of.We? I don’t believe that.That would make the predecessors of the procaryotes the predecessors to everybody else.If ToE were true yes. I never assumed it was. I was asking if there was evidence of them. My intention was to get a question answered. Which you could have done very easily by saying No. on your first post to me. That would have sufficed.Which we have - the prokaryotes. Who were their predecessors? We may never know, though I imagine we'll have some ideasThe question Who were their predecessors?, presupposes that they should have predecessors. You should be asking did they have predecessors. Can’t you see that you frame your questions on the presuppositional foundations of ToE. You have to hold out the possibility that there are no progenitors to prokaryotes. And there is no evidence that there are.This isn’t a single progenitor. We have 2 different, completely formed, prokaryotes.
Archaea and true bacteria. Thus ToE falls apart as there is no single progenitor.That’s how I figure it. I will have to get back to you tomorrow.

Ok one more post.A question that you already knew the answer to? Why would you ask such a thing?Believe it or not, I didn’t know. I had some suspicion that my sources might be wrong. Thus the web search, thus this forum. Thus, thus, thus.When did you last see a living thing with no ancestors? I sure never have. What makes you think prokaryotes are different, somehow?Obviously one generation of anything alive can pass on another generation of the same.Prokaryotes. I don’t see a progenitor species. eukaryotes. I don’t see one here either. I don’t by Prokaryotes as progenitor species of eukaryotes. Ediacaran Fauna. The list goes on.You have to hold out the possibility that there are no progenitors to prokaryotes
Oh, I do. It is very much a possibility.If true this is catastrophic for ToE. There are 2 species of prokaryotes. TWO. Distinct. Therefore no single original progenitor of all life. This is where we stand today. ToE is dead.Thus ToE falls apart as there is no single progenitor.Except, obviously, the single progenitor of both Archaea and true bacteria, which, most likely, existed.No proof. But great faith.