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Author | Topic: Questioning The Evolutionary Process | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
How do you explain antibiotic resistance then? Natural selection. Suppose we have 100 roaches and introduce them to roach poison. 98 of them die, while two remain alive, one male, one female. The roaches already had within them either the fitness to survive, or some other arbitrary gene that helped their survival because of a deletion, or a mutation, or was isolated for whatever reason. The two then procreate. The progeny of the progenitors now has a disposition more favorable than the previous 98 that died. Each successive roach that comes from the remaining pair will be more likely to have a resistance to the pesticide. With microbes, natural selection is even easier, and far more prevalent because they are so simple, with a tiny genome much smaller than even that of a cockroach. Any mutation will be more likely to fix in the next generation, which means the progeny will have adapted a resistance. That's evolution 101, right? Well, partially. Here's the kicker. Organisms can do that all day long. But a microbe will always be a microbe. You can breed a dog 100 different ways. In the end, you'll still have a dog. You can cross-breed roses with other flowers, but as the adage goes: a rose is still a rose by any other name. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
100 ways? Yes, you'll probably still have a dog. But if you selectively breed for non-dogginess, and do it for enough successive generations, eventually you'll wind up with something that may be able to produce offspring with its brothers and sisters but not with other dogs. That's speciation and there's no reason to deny it exists other than religious conviction. I have some objections to the speciation claim. Wouldn't something like allopatric speciation really just be variations due to isolation, genetic drift, etc, thus culminating in sub-species? If you think about it from the perspective of binomial nomenclature, a "species" is just as ambiguous as what the Bible refers to as a "kind." And the definitions for species pretty much models that of the subordinate category of subspecie. I suppose it cannot be said in linear terms, as in, being unable to quantify the amount of changes necessary to bring one category either higher or lower. But what the then is the defining principles between the two? Is it sexual (in)compatibility, morphological (dis)similarities, or population splits?
Why do you think housecats are so similar to lions and tigers? Because they are both feline.
(After all, they're still cats, but just try breeding a male housecat with a lioness.) There are some anatomical problems with that. No need to get graphic, but it sounds quite uncomfortable.
Did God say, "I think I'll create a whole bunch of stuff that's really similar because I'm too lazy to think of novel creatures"? Huh? Can you expound, please? “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Well, except when they stop being microbes and become parts of a multicellular organism: Slime Mould and the Transition to Multicellularity I'm not seeing the profundity. What makes this organism any different than a virus which needs a host?
When you can tell me why a dog is a dog, and not something else, you'll be on the way to refuting your own argument. The simple truth of the matter is that we can and do observe organisms crossing that species boundary on a regular basis. My question is what is a species? It seems ambiguous, especially when juxtaposed to a subspecie. Apparently I'm not alone in the regard. This reminds me of an argument I had awhile back about artificial intelligence. The OP stated that artificial intelligence is actual intelligence. I asked him what intelligence constitutes. He couldn't answer it intelligently. What then is the difference between specie and subspecie? It seems that they are based on capricious and not well-defined principles. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Somewhere around 60 million years ago (give or take a bunch) something weasel like bred a bunch of different ways. Some of those weasels you call dogs and some you call cats but they are still weasels. Of course, what you might call a weasel wasn't actually a weasel either. That's all speculation based on circumstantial evidence. You couldn't know that empirically because it requires the observation and testing of subjects. Its theoretical. Could it be true? Certainly. Think of it this way: If you have an animal with a similar genome, similar morphology, similar everything, it would be easy to speculate that one comes from the other. But that's totally subjective, unless they both share genetic mistakes. Because at some point, two animals will share more similarities than another when comparing them. That in no way proves they were related to one another.
If you preform the same experiment with current dogs eventually you will get a lot of very, very different things but by taxonomic rules you have to keep calling them all dogs. Some might be small herbivores, some the size of rhinos but you would (if I understand the rules correctly ) still have to call them dogs. Something like that, yes. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Besides there not being either viruses or hosts in the situation the paper describes? I wonder if you even read the abstract. Because a virus can do the same thing. Is it the same for the virus, in other words?
quote: So when an peripheral offshoot of the original becomes isolated from the dominant population, and they can no longer reproduce together, that is when they are officially a new "species?" If a wolf and the common housedog can produce fertile offspring, is this evidence that one is the ancestral specie, while the other is a subspecie? And conversely, is the mule, since it is not sterile, evidence of speciation between donkey's and horses? How precise or imprecise a thing are we even dealing with? There is no scientific consensus concerning what constitutes a species, as opposed to a subspecies. Some allege that failure to interbreed is evidence of speciation, while others would contend that it is much more complicated. Do we have a clear archetype for describing exactly what a species and a subspecies is?
For as much as you say "dogs never beget cats" or whatever, the fact that it's somewhat ambiguous about what it means to be a cat or a dog is proof that we're not looking at separate, created "kinds," but rather organisms who share some characteristics and are divergent in other characteristics because they evolved separately from a single ancestor. The word "kind" is equally as ambiguous as Darwin's conception of species, to which he said that, basically, if it looks the same, I just call it a species for convenience. Since no one really knows just what in the heck either of them constitute, I am searching for a little more clarity. Because as of now, I really don't see much difference, cladistically speaking, from a species from a subspecies.
The singular of "species" is "species", as we continually remind you. There's no such thing as "subspecie". I beg to differ. What in the world do you think a Wolf next to a Husky is? It isn't different species; they are different subspecies. Its the same with cats, the same with horses, same with various insects, same with almost any organism. The "species problem" seems alive and well. I enjoyed the quotations made even by notable scholars on it. "I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties"-- Charles Darwin "No term is more difficult to define than "species," and on no point are zoologists more divided than as to what should be understood by this word".-- Henry Nicholson "Of late, the futility of attempts to find a universally valid criterion for distinguishing species has come to be fairly generally, if reluctantly, recognized"-- Theodosius Dobzhansky "The concept of a species is a concession to our linguistic habits and neurological mechanisms"-- John Scott Haldane "The species problem is the long-standing failure of biologists to agree on how we should identify species and how we should define the word 'species'."-- Jody Hey "First, the species problem is not primarily an empirical one, but it is rather fraught with philosophical questions that require-but cannot be settled by-empirical evidence." --Massimo Pigliucci “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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