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Author Topic:   Questioning The Evolutionary Process
NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 160 (421594)
09-13-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
09-13-2007 3:31 AM


Unique?
I'm being lazy, and a bit busy with good and bad these days, and haven't read the paper but...
How do we determine "unique"? If I have 100 mutations in my genes how do we know that a few 100 million others don't happen to have the same ones?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 160 (421603)
09-13-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
09-13-2007 10:41 AM


Re: Unique?
That's (~)100 new ones that you did not inherit from parent genomes. The probability of any one being duplicated is low.
You have a lot of others that you do share.
I don't get that as an answer to my question. It wasn't about uniqueness from my parents but the whole generation alive while I am. The search through the genome space by mutations/natural selection if the genome is getting lots of nice, shiny, new mutations but if all the individuals of a generation have the same "new" mutations there are only 100 to go around. But if each have "unique" mutations there are over half a trillion to work with.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 109 of 160 (432872)
11-08-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Hyroglyphx
11-08-2007 5:42 PM


Dog Breeding
You can breed a dog 100 different ways. In the end, you'll still have a dog.
But this experiment was done. Reptiles were bred with reptiles 100 jillion different ways. Now for some perverse reason you want to call some of them dogs.
Somewhere around 60 million years ago (give or take a bunch) something weasel like bred a bunch of different ways. Some of those weasels you call dogs and some you call cats but they are still weasels. Of course, what you might call a weasel wasn't actually a weasel either.
If you preform the same experiment with current dogs eventually you will get a lot of very, very different things but by taxonomic rules you have to keep calling them all dogs. Some might be small herbivores, some the size of rhinos but you would (if I understand the rules correctly ) still have to call them dogs.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 135 of 160 (433144)
11-10-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
11-09-2007 12:22 PM


Best evidence
Take what I say with an implied "all the evidence indicates that..." or "the most reasonable interpretation based on current evidence is that...". These are always implied in anything said in all walks of life.
That's all speculation based on circumstantial evidence. You couldn't know that empirically because it requires the observation and testing of subjects. Its theoretical. Could it be true? Certainly.
Think of it this way: If you have an animal with a similar genome, similar morphology, similar everything, it would be easy to speculate that one comes from the other. But that's totally subjective, unless they both share genetic mistakes. Because at some point, two animals will share more similarities than another when comparing them. That in no way proves they were related to one another.
I won't go into the "historical subject" aspect of this but will just comment that we do experiments all the time. When we explore an new fossil deposit we are experimenting to see if we make certain observations.
One observation we have continued to make is that there were no cats and dogs 70 million years ago.
Now we observe cats and dogs.
So we need a theory of how they got here. What is yours? The consensus scientific one is that something or things alive then kept changing until it's or their descendants became cats and dogs. Do you disagree?
Then the question is: was it the same thing that became cats and dogs or different things? The consensus is that is the former. With lots of good evidence for it. With the amount of evidence available calling it "speculation" is a bit of stretch for the meaning of that word.
Separately, what to you mean by "circumstantial" evidence? What kind is better?

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