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Author Topic:   Mendel wasn't entirely right
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 15 of 65 (194034)
03-24-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taqless
03-24-2005 11:46 AM


some quick answers
1. So, not just their pet gene?
No, another half-a-dozen loci they genotyped also reverted.
However, the reversion only occurred when their pet gene (hth) was homozygous mutant.
2. Did they arrive at this homozygous recessive gene through crossing (well, I guess so since transposons typically land in more than one place as I recall)?
Yes, and from self-fertilization of hth homozygous mutants to rule out issues of accidental pollen contamination.
3. Is it possible it "mutated" back to the original sequence?
Unlikely based on the paper (assuming you mean "randomly mutated"):
- The reversion frequency (10%) was much higher than random mutation would allow.
- Non-revertant random mutations did not appear in the sequenced alleles above expected background.
- Perhaps most importantly - the revertants always had the same exact polymorphisms that were present in their "grandparents'", but not "parents'", genome.

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 Message 13 by Taqless, posted 03-24-2005 11:46 AM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 20 of 65 (194043)
03-24-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by commike37
03-24-2005 11:56 AM


jumping the gun
Although 10% doesn't seem like much it adds up. Let's say this same thing happens on a much grander scale. We'll measure a 90% rate for retaining mutations per generation...
Sorry, but your calculations are rather worthless. You've completely ignored selective forces.
Honestly, even if the mechanism described slowed evolution to a crawl - so what? If it is a recently-evolved mechanism, it would have little impact on the evolutionary history of organisms carrying the system. If it is only present in a few species, it would only effect the pace of evolution in those species.
if you can't trust Mendel as much, then how much do you trust Darwin? You think you know it all and then BOOM...this happens.
commike37-
I'm not sure why you think this is the first time Mendel's laws have been "violated". There have already been other threads in the forum discussing non-Mendelian genetics. If you search PubMed you'll find papers from the 1950's discussing non-Mendelian genetics.
The report is an important finding, and it will be interesting to see if stands continued scrutiny, and to see if this phenomena is seen in any other species. As I think WK stated earlier, the massive amount of work done, especially in controlled genetic models such as flies, worms, and mice, would suggest that if a similar mechanism existed in these it would have likely been noticed. (Keep in mind that the plant model from the study has only been in use for about twenty years; flies and worms have been in use for over a century.)
I looked at the original paper where the Hothead gene was cloned, and it seems that it is only present in plants, but they don't specifically state that it isn't found in non-plant species. Also, the sequence accession numbers they give in that paper for the Hothead genes are invalid (seems odd), so I can't do my own sequence-based search.
My assumption is that the presence of the gene is non-plant species would have definitely been mentioned in the Nature article, since it would boost the relevance of the report astronomically.
This (single, unconfirmed) study is important, but does not negatively impact major theories as you are presenting.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 23 of 65 (194051)
03-24-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by commike37
03-24-2005 11:56 AM


why the mechanism doesn't "kill" evolution
how much do you trust Darwin? You think you know it all and then BOOM...this happens.
commike-
Let me put my above "minimal impact" statement another way:
At its simplest, the theory of evolution comes down to (1) natural selection acting on (2) mutation.
So, you should ask yourself how the results of this study impact this process. Let's make a huge leap and assume the proposed "RNA-backup-genome" hypothesis is correct, and it applies to all species, and it has been present since the beginning of life.
Since the hypothesis effects mutation, the natural selection "half" of evolution is unaffected, leaving the mutation portion to be examined.
The RNA-backup hypothesis alters our understanding of the genetic template (a combined RNA/DNA genome is still a genetic template), and our understanding of inheritance (it is not always parent-to-child, and under specific instances of stress inheritance can occur from grandparent-to-child.) These differences involve the mode of inheritance, and may impact on the rate and fixation of mutations.
Mutations still occur, and are still acted upon by natural selection.
Evolutionary theory is unaffected.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 28 of 65 (194085)
03-24-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by commike37
03-24-2005 2:50 PM


Methinks you switched the goalposts...
I've stated several times before that I've never meant for this to be a scientific argument. It's just a simple comparison used to demonstrate the general... trustiworthiness of empirical evidence to determine truth and to explain our world.
Well, excuse me then for directly answering point #1 of your opening post:
Two issues that I think are relevant
1. Obviously, the effect this study has on the theroy of evolution in relation to mutation.
Also please excuse me for directly answering the question you pose in point #2 of your opening post:
If we can't entirely trust Mendel, is it wise to continue to treat evolution as the "holy grail" it has become?
Okay, so you don't want to have a scientific discussion (then why are you citing scientific evidence???)
Instead you want to argue the trustiworthiness of evidence, seemingly based on the idea that the study you cite points to some evidence that is NOT trustworthy. Whether or not the specific evidence in question is trustworthy deserves some attention (rather than your assumption), as does your attempt to incorrectly extrapolate it to the theory of evolution.
Once again: The second issue I raised was a broad, philosophical one, not a scientific one. You can throw all the technical science you want at me...
Yet it was based on incorrect thought regarding the process of science, as well as the understanding of inheritance and its links to evolution. If you are uninterested in filling in these gaps in your understanding in favor of dismissing them as "technical", your "philosophical" issues will continue to be tainted by your false assumptions.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 29 of 65 (194087)
03-24-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by commike37
03-24-2005 3:06 PM


(mal)function
If you look to my use of a decay function,...
Where do you include the input of selection in your decay function?
Is your decay function "philosophical" or "technical"?

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 54 of 65 (194645)
03-26-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by judge
03-26-2005 4:14 AM


off the top of my head...
quote:
The paper suggests that the mutation of HTH may greatly increase the frequency of an otherwise very rarely operating mechanism.
If a mechanism operates very rarely how is it selected for?
Look at the quote again - it is only rare in the presence of the HTH gene. One possibility that comes to mind is that the unknown "backup" mechanism was selected for prior to the arisal of the HTH gene.
Perhaps the backup mechanism made a species more fit for a part of its history/environment, but the same mechanism later reduced fitness - the HTH gene/system may have been selected for to "override" the "backup" system.
Hopefully that makes sense - the key is that we can't look at a fully intact modern organism and assume that a characteristic of interest evolved in an identical organism without that system. Instead, the characteristic may have evolved in a very remote ancestor species bearing no resemblance to the modern species and living under quite different conditions.

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 Message 55 by Wounded King, posted 03-28-2005 6:42 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 56 of 65 (195230)
03-29-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Wounded King
03-28-2005 6:42 PM


Re: off the top of my head...
I think Judge is justified in saying it is rare.
Of course he is, when describing modern Arabidopsis - I didn't say otherwise.
My comments referred to a potential evolutionary history of Arabidopsis; that is, that we don't know that the mechanism was always as specifically and rarely utilized in the species' evolutionary history as it is in modern Arabidopsis.
I don't see how you comments counter that point.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 58 of 65 (195486)
03-30-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Wounded King
03-30-2005 2:56 AM


contextintent
I disagree. For the mechanism to be maintained from that distant ancestral species it surely has to have continued to be selected.
You can't really disagree with me on that point because I never made that argument.
I don't see why it ever needs to have been widespread,
Again, I never claimed it was widespread, not even in speculation.
Given that only one species of Arabidopsis has been studied yet it seems a bit pointless to be making up 'just so' stories out of thin air.
My intent was not to try to explain away the finding's impact on evolution with speculation. My intent was to try to explain to judge that we can't assume that a mechanism evolved intact in the biological context we now see it; in other words to counter the same sort of argument that many attempt to use to show irreducible complexity.
Perhaps I would have better served this cause using a better-documented example such as the blood clotting cascade; however, I'm not sure why you are so intent on argument to the point that you are arguing against statements I have not made.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6052 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 60 of 65 (197427)
04-07-2005 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Wounded King
04-07-2005 8:19 AM


mosaicism?
Does the reversion occur earlier in the developing germ cells themselves? This might be consistent with the much higher rates of paternal to maternal reversion.
"What about the germ cells?" was my first thought on reading their conclusion. Separate of reversion, does it make sense that mosaicism restricted to germ cells could be inherited?
Pollen-based studies are fairly routine in Arabidopsis, since some have used it is as a way to simplify genetic analysis by looking at haploid genomes. I see no reason that an allele that exists in 10% of pollen couldn't be rather easily detected, even just by a simple PCR.
Intuitively, germ cell mosaicism is a more plausible explanation to me than a back-up dsRNA genome, which as you say should have sent up some sort of flag with expression analysis - though perhaps the back-up is restricted to the germ cells, and I'm not sure what kind of expression analysis has been done in germ cells (particularly pollen).
Lots of unanswered questions -

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