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Author Topic:   Mendel wasn't entirely right
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (193795)
03-23-2005 9:34 PM


Here's an interesting article for discussion from the New York Times. It'll only be available for seven days before it is archived and you have to pay for it, so I'll post the entire thing. Also, for those of you who don't want to read the entire article, I'll provide a summary.
The plant arabidopsis shocked scientists by correcting a mutated gene. This correction can't be accounted for by any known mechanism for gene correction, and scientists could not find any backup copy of the gene in the DNA. The best theory available, or the "least mad hypothesis," as Dr. Surridge called it, is that a backup copy exists in the RNA. However, backup templates should be more reliable than the original, and RNA is more error-prone than DNA. As a result, this study represents an unprecedented exception to Mendel's laws on inheritance. Although it's a little early to draw conclusive and final interpretations, this study does represent a stumbling block for mutation, which is one of the foundations of evolution. Additionally, it creates problems with the evolutionary view of sex as a corrective mechanism for mutations, posing serious questions for the bdelloid rotifiers (which were sexless for millions of years) as a candidate for evolution.
Two issues that I think are relevant
1. Obviously, the effect this study has on the theroy of evolution in relation to mutation.
2. The trustworthiness of evolution in general. Think about it, very few, if any, myself included, considered Mendel's laws of inheritance to be a questionable aspect of evolution. It was more widely accepted than evolution itself. But all of a sudden, one day, this study comes along, proving that Mendel wasn't entirely correct. If we can't entirely trust Mendel, is it wise to continue to treat evolution as the "holy grail" it has become?
Startling Scientists, Plant Fixes Its Flawed Gene - The New York Times
New York Times
March 23, 2005
Startling Scientists, Plant Fixes Its Flawed Gene
By NICHOLAS WADE
In a startling discovery, geneticists at Purdue University say they have found plants that possess a corrected version of a defective gene inherited from both their parents, as if some handy backup copy with the right version had been made in the grandparents' generation or earlier.
The finding implies that some organisms may contain a cryptic backup copy of their genome that bypasses the usual mechanisms of heredity. If confirmed, it would represent an unprecedented exception to the laws of inheritance discovered by Gregor Mendel in the 19th century. Equally surprising, the cryptic genome appears not to be made of DNA, the standard hereditary material.
The discovery also raises interesting biological questions - including whether it gets in the way of evolution, which depends on mutations changing an organism rather than being put right by a backup system.
"It looks like a marvelous discovery," said Dr. Elliott Meyerowitz, a plant geneticist at the California Institute of Technology. Dr. David Haig, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, described the finding as "a really strange and unexpected result," which would be important if the observation holds up and applies widely in nature.
The result, reported online yesterday in the journal Nature by Dr. Robert E. Pruitt, Dr. Susan J. Lolle and colleagues at Purdue, has been found in a single species, the mustardlike plant called arabidopsis that is the standard laboratory organism of plant geneticists. But there are hints that the same mechanism may occur in people, according to a commentary by Dr. Detlef Weigel of the Max-Planck Institute for Developmental Biology in Tbingen, Germany. Dr. Weigel describes the Purdue work as "a spectacular discovery."
The finding grew out of a research project started three years ago in which Dr. Pruitt and Dr. Lolle were trying to understand the genes that control the plant's outer skin, or cuticle. As part of the project, they were studying plants with a mutated gene that made the plant's petals and other floral organs clump together. Because each of the plant's two copies of the gene were in mutated form, they had virtually no chance of having normal offspring.
But up to 10 percent of the plants' offspring kept reverting to normal. Various rare events can make this happen, but none involve altering the actual sequence of DNA units in the gene. Yet when the researchers analyzed the mutated gene, known as hothead, they found it had changed, with the mutated DNA units being changed back to normal form.
"That was the moment when it was a complete shock," Dr. Pruitt said.
A mutated gene can be put right by various mechanisms that are already known, but all require a correct copy of the gene to be available to serve as the template. The Purdue team scanned the DNA of the entire arabidopsis genome for a second, cryptic copy of the hothead gene but could find none.
Dr. Pruitt and his colleagues argue that a correct template must exist, but because it is not in the form of DNA, it probably exists as RNA, DNA's close chemical cousin. RNA performs many important roles in the cell, and is the hereditary material of some viruses. But it is less stable than DNA, and so has been regarded as unsuitable for preserving the genetic information of higher organisms.
Dr. Pruitt said he favored the idea that there is an RNA backup copy for the entire genome, not just the hothead gene, and that it might be set in motion when the plant was under stress, as is the case with those having mutated hothead genes.
He and other experts said it was possible that an entire RNA backup copy of the genome could exist without being detected, especially since there has been no reason until now to look for it.
Scientific journals often take months or years to get comfortable with articles presenting novel ideas. But Nature accepted the paper within six weeks of receiving it. Dr. Christopher Surridge, a biology editor at Nature, said the finding had been discussed at scientific conferences for quite a while, with people saying it was impossible and proposing alternative explanations. But the authors had checked all these out and disposed of them, Dr. Surridge said.
As for their proposal of a backup RNA genome, "that is very much a hypothesis, and basically the least mad hypothesis for how this might be working," Dr. Surridge said.
Dr. Haig, the evolutionary biologist, said that the finding was fascinating but that it was too early to try to interpret it. He noted that if there was a cryptic template, it ought to be more resistant to mutation than the DNA it helps correct. Yet it is hard to make this case for RNA, which accumulates many more errors than DNA when it is copied by the cell.
He said that the mechanism, if confirmed, would be an unprecedented exception to Mendel's laws of inheritance, since the DNA sequence itself is changed. Imprinting, an odd feature of inheritance of which Dr. Haig is a leading student, involves inherited changes to the way certain genes are activated, not to the genes themselves.
The finding poses a puzzle for evolutionary theory because it corrects mutations, which evolution depends on as generators of novelty. Dr. Meyerowitz said he did not see this posing any problem for evolution because it seems to happen only rarely. "What keeps Darwinian evolution intact is that this only happens when there is something wrong," Dr. Surridge said.
The finding could undercut a leading theory of why sex is necessary. Some biologists say sex is needed to discard the mutations, almost all of them bad, that steadily accumulate on the genome. People inherit half of their genes from each parent, which allows the half left on the cutting room floor to carry away many bad mutations. Dr. Pruitt said the backup genome could be particularly useful for self-fertilizing plants, as arabidopsis is, since it could help avoid the adverse effects of inbreeding. It might also operate in the curious organisms known as bdelloid rotifers that are renowned for not having had sex for millions of years, an abstinence that would be expected to seriously threaten their Darwinian fitness.
Dr. Pruitt said it was not yet known if other organisms besides arabidopsis could possess the backup system. Colleagues had been quite receptive to the idea because "biologists have gotten used to the unexpected," he said, referring to a spate of novel mechanisms that have recently come to light, several involving RNA.
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-23-2005 06:22 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2005 6:52 AM commike37 has replied
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 03-24-2005 10:31 AM commike37 has replied
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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (194031)
03-24-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 6:52 AM


The proportion of revertants is not so high as to present any real problem for mutation and the spread of mutations, except perhaps in the case where the mutation is particularly detrimental.
"But up to 10 percent of the plants' offspring kept reverting to normal."
Although 10% doesn't seem like much it adds up. Let's say this same thing happens on a much grander scale. We'll measure a 90% rate for retaining mutations per generation.
y=.9^x
After 7 generations, we're at less than one half.
After 22 generations, we're at less than one tenth.
On an evolutionary timeframe of many generations...
Even with a more conservative estimate
y=.95^x
After 14 generations, we're at less than one half.
After 45 generations, we're at less than one tenth.
On an evolutionary timeframe of many generations...
Now granted, we don't know what else does this besides arabidopsis, but the possibilities do present some interesting scenarios.
If anything this would seem to be a helpful accessory mechanism biasing evolution more towards beneficial mutations.
The problem is that these are corrective mutations. It's not like these plants are making a new mutation, they're just reverting to an old form. The whole point about correcting mutations is that it decreases biodiversity.
Given that Darwin formulated his theories about evolution with absoloutely no knowledge of Mendelian genetics I fail to see why it should be a nail in evolutions coffin. Certainly the modern synthesis does include a very strong emphasis on genetics, but it is certainly not restricted to Mendelian genetics.
I think the problem is more with your view of the importance of Mendelian genetics in evolution than with the impact these findings will actually have.
Still, I would think that Mendel would be more trustworthy than Darwin. The whole point of this is not to disprove evolution (everytime I even suggest not treating evolution as a "holy grail," it's somehow mysteriously equated with disproving evolution). My second point is more philosophical than scientific (the first was meant to have the scientific leaning). Regardless of whatever link may or may not exist between Mendel and Darwin, if you trust Mendel more than Darwin, then given what happened here, if you can't trust Mendel as much, then how much do you trust Darwin? You think you know it all and then BOOM...this happens.
edit: As a side note, your link to the original paper doesn't seem to be working.
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-24-2005 11:57 AM
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-24-2005 12:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2005 6:52 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 03-24-2005 12:09 PM commike37 has replied
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 Message 21 by Wounded King, posted 03-24-2005 12:40 PM commike37 has replied
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-24-2005 1:18 PM commike37 has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 65 (194036)
03-24-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
03-24-2005 10:31 AM


If it gets a foot in the door, it definitely makes evolution less dogmatic. It's also another reminder of just how science can change overnight, and perceptions on any theory, whether it's evolution or genetics, shouldn't be set in stone. And this is what we need more of today.
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-24-2005 12:10 PM

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Replies to this message:
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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 65 (194037)
03-24-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
03-24-2005 12:09 PM


Well, yes, the link to evolution is still a bit hazy at this point, but it's a still makes for a great philosophical argument on the nature of empiricial evidence and truth in general.

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 65 (194072)
03-24-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
03-24-2005 1:18 PM


You're overthinking this
I've stated several times before that I've never meant for this to be a scientific argument. It's just a simple comparison used to demonstrate the general (meaning not having a specific connection to Darwin or Mendel, though it applies to both) trustiworthiness of empirical evidence to determine truth and to explain our world.
Once again: The second issue I raised was a broad, philosophical one, not a scientific one. You can throw all the technical science you want at me, but you're not establishing any philosophical clash here.

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 65 (194079)
03-24-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 12:40 PM


If it was a common feature in arabidopsis it would have been noticed well before hand at that high a frequency.
If you look to my use of a decay function, you see that the time variable is generations. It's hard to measure a large decrease like that over generations, especially since the real world doesn't have controls like this experiment did. 10% in one generation is rather insignicant, but 10% per generation under an evolutionary timeframe is very significant.
The whole point about correcting stress inducing mutations is that they return you to a tried and tested allele for your ancestral environment.
Could you clarify how the RNA template is induced by stress? I'm a bit unclear on this one. Also, in the NY Times article, Dr. Surridge described the RNA hypothesis as the "least mad hypothesis." Meaning that even if it's the best one out there, it still doesn't stand much of a chance.

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 65 (194262)
03-24-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by pink sasquatch
03-24-2005 3:24 PM


You're missing a key distinction here.
Let me clarify my original post: Point one is scientific and technical. Point two is broad and philosophical. I'm running two main arguents here, each with a different style. I'm not quite sure you recognize the distinction in many of the posts I made. My problem is that the scientific/technical rebuttal to my second point is not establishing sufficient clash. It's getting overanalytical and missing the broader philosophical meaning of my point (second point, if the distinction is still not clear enough).

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 65 (194266)
03-24-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Ooook!
03-24-2005 4:47 PM


For the umpteenth time - scientific theories are tentative!!!. The theory of evolution, and our theories on genetics are not, and have never been "Set in stone", they have all been modified when new evidence presents itself. This is how the scientific method works.
Many people on this forum have said evolution is a fact of life. I don't every remember learning any explanation to the theory of life in science class besides evolution. And even when ToE has been refined and/or changed over the years due to "tentative" aspects, it's still been evolution in one form or another. There certainly is some dogma attached to evolution.
If you want an example of dogma - look no further than creationism.
Sure, creationism has some religious dogma, but it is nowhere near the dogmatic position of evolution today scientifically speaking. And even if there is a "Christian right," that also means there must be an "atheist left."
BTW I notice you've had a little cheeky attempt to sneak a topic in through the back door of questions and suggestions about how ID is dismissed as not being 'scientific'. If you want to put your money where your mouth is and think you can back up the claim that it does meet the critera for being a proper scientific theory then start a proper topic - I'm sure you will not be short of oppponents.
And this is simply off-topic. Leave these little cheeky attacks out of your analysis.

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 65 (194271)
03-24-2005 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 4:35 PM


The idea here is that if this study proves true to a much larger scale for mutation in general, the effects could be enormous. The sample size of mutations in the real world, whether large or small, is the sample size that led to evolution under the time frame of 6 billion years (or whatever the number may be). Now if that sample size of mutations is corrected at a rate of 10% per generation, and one-third are good, one-third are neutral, and one-third are bad, then evolution is granted less good mutations which are necessary for evolution. Even with a 3.3% correction rate of good mutations per generation, this adds up over billions of years, meaning the possibility of a huge change in the evolutionary timeframe.

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