Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9024 total)
42 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 41 visitors)
Newest Member: Ryan Merkle
Post Volume: Total: 882,921 Year: 567/14,102 Month: 567/294 Week: 54/269 Day: 0/14 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What mutations are needed for a particular trait (e.g. wings) to arise?
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 90 of 111 (347395)
09-07-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by skepticfaith
08-29-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Hi guys! I'm back for round 2 of debating! Let's get going, I may not have much time for this when my classes start.

First of all, is it mathematically possible for wings to arrive from random mutations? NO!

Second, percent of mutations that are beneficial- Well, I've got the other side, percent of harmful mutations, you can calculate the percent you need from that... 99.9% of mutations are harmful! But wait! Don't start posting a reply. The EFFECT of a mutation may be beneficial, neutral, or harmful depending on the circumstances, but 99.9% of mutations are BY NATURE harmful. Meaning that the mutation ITSELF is a harmful one. Mutations can destroy genetic information, mess up the information, mix it up, or flip it, or do other things to the sort, but mutations DO NOT add any new genetic information to the genetic code! They can't! No mutation can add in a few strips of genetic code to a creature to make it evolve or start evolving wings. Mutations just can't do it! Mutations ONLY alter the PREVIOUSLY existing genetic code, period. And these random, slight modifications are not what would help evolution of wings or any other thing for that matter. Because evolution, macroevolution, would require great increases in genetic code to make a human from a tiny cell over time. But mutations can't help to do this, they are just incapable of doing it! And without genetic increases, no macroevolution can or will occur! Macroevolution has NEVER been observed! It never happened! And mutations can't help it, neither can natural selection or isolation, ask if you want info on these...

Third, errors due to mutation, YOU BET! See, even if you got one mutation that was beneficial, you would get a bunch of harmful ones following it which would destroy the beneficial one, so it just can't happen! Mutations basically ARE errors!


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by skepticfaith, posted 08-29-2006 5:45 PM skepticfaith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 10:09 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 93 of 111 (347403)
09-07-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-07-2006 10:09 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
You know what, for the past 4,000 years or so, we have not observed mutations making wings. And, genetics won't permit it. Show me how it can! Go on. Show me how random, 99.9% harmful mutations can make a wing on a non winged creature over time. I challenge you!

P.S. You know how it works in science, show your proof or change your theory. I have yet to see proof for macroevolution, proof that is directly related to macroevolution. If you have some, I'll be glad to see it, because I've been waiting for quite some time... Getting a bit boring... (maybe a different topic for this would be good)


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 10:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 10:57 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2006 11:05 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 97 of 111 (347431)
09-07-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-07-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
How can I show you that it can't happen? You should see that in nature all around you, no mutations have made wings evolve.

Genetics won't permit. Why? During sexual reproduction, genetic information from the parents fuses together and makes the genetic code for the offspring. During this process, the offspring has code set for certain traits and features, which happens by combining the possible choices, and the outcome that is dominant will appear in the offspring. Mutations that happen in the gametes pass on to offspring, these are the only mutations that pass on to the offspring. If mutations do affect the genetic code of the gametes, it will show in the offspring, usually as a defect. These mutations are 99.9% harmful, meaning they destroy, mix up, disorganize, etc. Wings cannot come about by this destructive, random process. To make wings in a creature that doesn't already have them, or the code for them, an increase in new genetic information would be required, mutations do not do this, they only alter PREVIOUSLY existing code. So there, this is why it's NOT AT ALL possible for wings, or evolving wings, to come about by random mutations. A creature will not receive genetic information for wings or info to start evolving them from mutations, because mutations are not capable of doing this, they just can't do it!

quote:
Science isn't about "proof".

Scientific hypotheses are supposed to be supported by evidence in order to be considered theories, evolution has yet to bring forth this evidence, thus it should remain at the hypothesis level, and a false one at that...


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 10:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:27 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 99 of 111 (347438)
09-07-2006 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Adequate
09-07-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
quote:
Of course the laws of genetics do not permit us to observe this in 4000 years. Hence, since the theory of evolution consists of the laws of genetics and the law of natural selection, the theory of evolution does not predict that we will observe this over 4000 years. Hence a failure to make such an observation does not tend to falsify the theory of evolution.

Did you see what I just did there? It's called "the scientific method".


Please! Don't tell me that we wouldn't expect to see at least SOME evolution in 4,000 years! I mean, reason with me, if throughout all of mankind no macroevolution has been observed at any stage, then what's the chance it happened over some millions of year? NONE!

That's just ridiculous: Evolutionist, "Folks, we haven't seen evolution throughout our entire existence, but um, trust me on this one, it did happen, when no one was there to see it. Just trust me."

But the laws of genetics and activities of mutations don't allow for evolution to happen AT ALL! Not even in 4 billion years! Explanation in above post.

quote:
By natural selection culling out the harmful ones, but favoring those which would be beneficial to a creature which, through its habits of life, has need to be aerodynamic.

Woah! Stop right there. What was that! Tell me, in what part of that did the reptile aquire the neccessary info to start evolving wings! Remember, the reptile doesn't have genetic code for wings or evolving them, so a filter (natural selection) would be of no use! Reason with me, since when did air filters start adding nitrogen or something to our air? What you would need is not a filter, nor errors, nor isolation, you would need GENETIC CODE INFORMATION INCREASES, but there is NO process to describe how this is even possible!

quote:
Ask me something difficult.

We can't move on to algebra if we don't even have our addition and multiplication learned. Sorry, I can't ask you something more difficult until you give me a plausible explanation for my simple questions. First simple, then difficult.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2006 11:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-08-2006 12:34 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2006 3:24 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 100 of 111 (347441)
09-07-2006 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:27 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
quote:
That ain't mathematics. You said it was mathematically impossible. Either show your calculations or admit that all you have is empty rhetoric.

99.9% sounds like a good enough mathematical impossibility. AND, mutations can't add genetic information, so it's even more impossible than that! The mutations are working in the opposite direction of what evolution would require! Evolution requires gain, mutations give loss! There's your mathematical impossibility!

quote:
What about the remaining 0.1% ?

I don't work for 99.9% of the companies in the world. Does that mean I don't work at all?


You know what I think personally? I think they only left that 0.1% or less to give evolutionists at least some little hope to cling to... I have never seen a beneficial mutation, meaning, a mutation that adds good genetic information to a creature or something to the sort, so I think that 100% of mutations are harmful in nature. But, you have the chance to show me elsewise, have any beneficial mutation examples somewhere? (Hint: Not beneficial EFFECT, and actual beneficial mutation by nature.)


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:49 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 106 by dwise1, posted 09-08-2006 1:32 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded
 Message 107 by MangyTiger, posted 09-08-2006 2:52 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded
 Message 111 by Codegate, posted 09-08-2006 2:38 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 4505 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 103 of 111 (347460)
09-08-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:49 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Evolution, macroevolution, is impossible. PROVE ME WRONG. PROVE that a wing forming from random mutations can be mathematically possible. Go on.

quote:
I don't care what you think personally.

Answer the question: If I don't work for 99.999% of the companies in the world, does that make it impossible for me to work for one of the other 0.001% ?


Evolution is a religion. So if you don't care about what I have to say, I shouldn't care about what you say either, we both believe in religions and we both can't prove what we believe by going back in time or something. Because most everything is based on presuppositions. But my presuppostions are from the Bible, and the Bible and science go hand in hand, as you can see for yourself here: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml That's why you can trust the Bible on the scientific accuracy of things, like Creation. But now, show me what your presuppositions of evolution are based on, go on now.

As for the question, you know the answer yourself. What I'm saying is that I believe it's 100% harmful mutations. And unless you can prove me wrong, that's how it's going to be for me. You can rely on your 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% for a beneficial mutation for your theory and for you life and stakes at eternity. Or, you can rely on God and His Word... You choose. It's up to you. Pick the right thing before it's too late, I don't want to see you or anyone else in hell for eternity. That's why I want you to recognize the truth, that evolution is a lie, that there is a God, and that you will have to give account one day... I hope to see you in Heaven, really, I do.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-08-2006 12:39 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021