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Author Topic:   The Dawkins question, new "information" in the genome?
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 19 of 67 (146011)
09-30-2004 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by creationistal
09-30-2004 11:40 AM


Re: Certainty/Tentativity
Do you mean that the things which look most like modern species look like modern species, well fancy that.
I take it that the things which look slightly like modern species but more like other fossils are just freakish coincidences.
Could you maybe tell us what you would expect a transitional fossil to look like?
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 36 of 67 (146049)
09-30-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by creationistal
09-30-2004 12:40 PM


It doesn't explain how homosapiens have pieces of genetic information in us that operate organs and functions that *don't work without each other*. The same goes for any number of living things in the world. There are things that either aren't worth keeping by evolving slowly, or things that couldn't evolve without something else at the same time.
*SNIP* Keystone Arch *SNIP*

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 39 of 67 (146061)
09-30-2004 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by creationistal
09-30-2004 12:46 PM


Dear Creationistal,
For someone who doesn't understand you seem awfully sure that you know evolution is contradicted by mathematics and the 2nd law of thermodynamics and that there are no transistional fossils.
All you are doing is reiterating one of the oldest creationist arguments in the book, the argument from design. As you may know the argument from design has had a lovely new makeover in recent years and is now the cornerstone of the Intelligent Design movement tied up in the idea of irreducible complexity.
The main point of the argument from design being that it would be impossible for all of the components of a particular system, a watch or eye in Paley's original argument and a bacterial flagellum for Michael Behe, to evolve in isolation as all the components are required for the whole to be functional.
This argument has been rebutted many times over the centuries and the most frequent analogy used to demonstrate the major flaw of 'irreducible complexity' is that of a keystone arch where the structure must first be built using a scaffold but from which the scaffold can later be removed leaving the structure standing.
Since all that is happening is that you are bringing up an argument that has been covered dozens of times in many threads on this forum I thought I would miss out all the tedious explaining and just give the keypoint of the argument, think of it as a sort of shorthand. Just put keystone arch into the forum search feature and you would have found many better explanations than mine.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by creationistal, posted 09-30-2004 12:46 PM creationistal has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 41 of 67 (146091)
09-30-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by creationistal
09-30-2004 1:19 PM


For example, take those functions that require at least 100 amino acids to perform them.
He explains it very badly indeed. It is an argument from incredulity based on numbers he has reached through his own assumptions and criteria.
Does he mean that all 100 amino acids have to be exactly right for functioning? Or that they all have to come about at one time? If so all he is doing is constructing a huge strawman. In many cases a number of amino acids can substitute for each other and leave a protein functional.
When one sees calculations like these being bandied around the first thing to do is be very sure of what the assumptions are that it is based on. Such calculations are only as good as their assumptions. This one seems to assume nothing but randomness
Throwing huge numbers around doesn't mean anything unless you are explicit about where those numbers come from.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 40 by creationistal, posted 09-30-2004 1:19 PM creationistal has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 43 of 67 (146104)
09-30-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Wounded King
09-30-2004 1:37 PM


Lactase seems a strange choice as I seem to recall a number of studies showing that E. coli with Lac-Z deletions under selective pressure with lactose evolved a number of different novel lactases, often under the same sort of regulation as Lac-Z, but not always.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 47 of 67 (146158)
09-30-2004 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by creationistal
09-30-2004 2:05 PM


how possible it is to even evolve something complex that is not already close by functionality-wise
Who says it has to? That is why it is a strawman. All of the steps are often proposed to be 'close by' functionality wise or close by in the sequence space of the protein.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 56 of 67 (146231)
09-30-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by creationistal
09-30-2004 5:42 PM


Re: New information
So you want the fossil record of a soft tissue's evolution and evidence of a completely de novo origin for a novel gene?
What you seem to be missing is any understanding of evolutionary theory, except through the lens of the strawman caricatures propagated by anti-evolutionary speakers.
TTFN,
WK

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