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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 708 of 936 (810245)
05-26-2017 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 702 by CRR
05-25-2017 8:29 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Unfortunately that can also be phrased as; I study evolution(i), I have observed evolution(ii), and believe evolution(iii) to be true; which can lead to equivocation.
You can observe observe the fact of gravity, theorize as to the cause of gravity, and accept the quantum theory of gravity. You can observe infections and germs, theorize as to the cause of infections, and accept the germ theory of disease.
The entire field of science involves the facts within a field, theories explaining those facts, and a consensus as to what the best theory or theories are. Evolution is no different.
a) By "changes in the composition of hereditary traits" are you referring to mutations that produce new variations in the phenotype by new variations in the genome?
Those changes can include the emergence of a new mutation and then its spread through the population in subsequent generations. It can also include a change in the frequency of already existing alleles, such as in the case of the peppered moth or the case of coat color in pocket mice that I have discussed in other threads. An example in humans is the correlation between latitude and alleles linked to skin color.
b) Neutral theory suggests much of the change in composition and frequency is due to genetic drift rather than being in response to anything? Do you want to cover that? Possibly not; there comes a point in interests of brevity minor points should be omitted from the definition and discussed in accompanying material.
Neutral theory only makes sense when compared to negative and positive selection, so it is a part of the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution covers all changes in the genetic makeup of populations over time.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 712 of 936 (810263)
05-26-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by CRR
05-26-2017 2:08 AM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
from the fossil record, as mostly laid down during Noah's Flood,
from the genetic record, showing the common designer of all living things,
from the historic record, as recorded in Genesis,
and from everyday record of the life we observe, descent with modification within the created kinds.
Stories in books are just that, stories in books. Also, "created kinds" is a throwaway term because you have no criteria for detecting created kinds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by CRR, posted 05-26-2017 2:08 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 11:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 753 of 936 (811382)
06-07-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by CRR
05-27-2017 11:43 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Taq, as I have shown in other posts there ARE criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds.
Those criteria were immediately thrown out when it was said that there could be a lack of interfertility between species within a kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 11:43 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by CRR, posted 06-08-2017 6:40 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 755 of 936 (811384)
06-07-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Dredge
06-07-2017 3:21 AM


Dredge writes:
Which is the more sensible approach? ... invent a different system for each one of the millions of species of organisms on earth, or use the same system for each one?
For a being who is all knowing, all powerful, and who lives outside of time and space, the most sensible approach is to start from scratch each time. The only reason why reusing systems makes sense is to save time and resources, both of which this supposed designer had an infinite supply of.
Also, why limit yourself to a nested hierarchy? If you can make species that are half reptile and half mammal, why not half mammal and half bird, or half ape and half dog? Why is it that the only mixture of characteristics we see are those that evolution would produce, and not the millions of different combinations a designer could make.
Human designers aren't limited to a nested hierarchy. Things like cars, buildings, paintings, and pottery don't fall into a nested hierarchy. I am not aware of any single designer who was limited to a nested hierarchy, so why do we see a nested hierarchy if design is true? It makes no sense why we would only see the pattern of shared features that evolution would create if design were true.
But on the other hand, humans have a long history of borrowing ideas from nature to build stuff. Would humans have ever thought of flight if they hadn't seen birds doing it?
Airplanes don't fall into a nested hierarchy. Birds do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2017 3:21 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:39 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 763 of 936 (811590)
06-09-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by CRR
06-08-2017 6:40 PM


Re: the word Evolution?
CRR writes:
Within the cats not every species can successfully breed with all the other species, but the chain of hybrids indicates that all are part of the one kind.
If links in that chain go extinct, would it produce cat species that can no longer interbreed with other cat species?
Hybridisation is not the only criteria for identifying the bounds of the Kinds. I can give you some links to the subject if you're willing to read them.
I would prefer that you discuss them in your own words. I would be most interested in the genetics of determining "created kinds".
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 764 of 936 (811591)
06-09-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 759 by Dredge
06-09-2017 4:39 AM


Dredge writes:
Asking why the Creator created according to nested hierarchies is as pointless as asking why the Creator made the sky blue and grass green ... or why he created apes that share 98% of their DNA with humans.
That leaves evolution as the only explanation for why we see a nested hierarchy.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 765 of 936 (811593)
06-09-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Dredge
06-09-2017 4:25 AM


Dredge writes:
If there is no connection between 1 and 2, then in effect, you are saying evolution is not evidence of evolution. Now that really does sound like both bad science and bad logic.
Observing species evolving now is not direct evidence that species evolved in the past. That should be obvious. What you need is evidence of natural selection that occurred in the past, and that evidence exists in the field of comparative genomics. When you compare genomes between species you can test for the signal of natural selection in their genomes in the form of Ka/Ks ratios, conservation of sequence, and phylogenetic signals. You know, stuff you have admitted you don't understand.

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 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by Dredge, posted 06-11-2017 5:08 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 772 of 936 (811837)
06-12-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by Dredge
06-11-2017 5:08 AM


Dredge writes:
You are doing your best to deny the escapable conclusion that evolution is not evidence of evolution, but your efforts are in vain.
I have stated over and over that a nested hierarchy is evidence of evolution. Perhaps you should read my actual posts.

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 Message 769 by Dredge, posted 06-11-2017 5:08 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 775 of 936 (813340)
06-26-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by CRR
06-26-2017 6:13 AM


Re: Define the word evolution
CRR writes:
Epigenetic changes are heritable in some cases but do not change the DNA. Should these be considered evolution?
Since it is macroevolution that is at dispute in most conversations we should not include epigenetics since they produce very limited changes that disappear after a handful of generations. Epigenetics simply can't explain the differences we see between divergent species so it is a non-factor when discussing macroevolution.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2017 5:12 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 778 of 936 (813344)
06-26-2017 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by RAZD
06-26-2017 5:12 PM


Re: Define the word evolution
RAZD writes:
The we'll need to define macroevolution ... because you can bet some creationists get it wrong.
In my experience, humans and chimps evolving from a common ancestor is usually accepted by most creationists as an example of macroevolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2017 5:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2017 9:32 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 787 of 936 (813413)
06-27-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by CRR
06-26-2017 11:02 PM


Re: The[n] we'll need to define macroevolution
CRR writes:
As you said "There is no single "official" definition [of the TOE (scientific version).]" Neither is there any single "official" definition of micro or macroevolution.
A complex and broad theory can not be condensed down into a short definition.
At least Durston's definitions could be applied to a speciation event, where genomes can be compared, to decide whether it was microevolution or macroevolution.
If chimps and humans share a common ancestor, and both species evolved from that common ancestor, would you accept that as an example of macroevolution?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 788 of 936 (813414)
06-27-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by CRR
06-27-2017 7:31 AM


Re: The[n] we'll need to define macroevolution
CRR writes:
Just as you have admitted there is not one scientific definition of the Theory of Evolution, neither is there one scientific definition of Macroevolution. You don't get to define it either.
When creationists state that macroevolution does not occur, what are they saying does not occur?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by CRR, posted 06-27-2017 7:31 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by Coyote, posted 06-27-2017 11:51 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 790 by Faith, posted 06-27-2017 12:18 PM Taq has replied
 Message 796 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 12:16 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 791 of 936 (813433)
06-27-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by Faith
06-27-2017 12:18 PM


Re: The[n] we'll need to define macroevolution
Faith writes:
Well, what I say is that genetic change stops at the boundary of the Kind when you run out of genetic diversity in the genome. Purebreeds are the model.
Even in purebreds there are new mutations that emerge in every individual in every generation which increases genetic diversity. Is this macroevolution?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by Faith, posted 06-27-2017 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 06-27-2017 2:00 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 795 of 936 (813448)
06-27-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by Faith
06-27-2017 2:00 PM


Re: The[n] we'll need to define macroevolution
Faith writes:
Evolution is phenotypic change in a population at least and MACRO evolution would be change beyond the Kind.
You defined kinds by an exhaustion of genetic diversity. This means a new kind is produced with new genetic diversity, which is exactly what new mutations produce.
And your mutations in a purebred are either superfluous or detrimental.
Evidence, please.
You need them in the sex cells and you have to get them selected, they have to become characteristic of a new breed or population, and for that to happen means you have to lose competing traits.
Then new mutations produce new alleles that replace those alleles. Keep repeating this process and you have macroevolution.
You don't get evolution without a cost. And at the rate implied by this scenario there is absolutely no way you could ever get evolution past the Kind.
All we need is a single mutation to produce a new kind, according to your definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 06-27-2017 2:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 8:50 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 809 of 936 (813546)
06-28-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Faith
06-28-2017 8:50 AM


Re: The[n] we'll need to define macroevolution
Faith writes:
The fact that it takes reduction of genetic diversity for evolution to occur at all, meaning to get a new population with new characteristics, is not recognized in the ToE.
The ToE does recognized that a newly created beneficial allele will replace the less fit allele.
It also recognizes that mutations occur in every generation, and that those new mutations increase genetic diversity.
People just go on and on dementedly talking about how microevolution just seques into macroevolution without a hitch, without recognizing that to get a new species requires the loss of all competing alleles.
You forgot about the addition of new alleles that replaced the old alleles. When you repeat this process over and over you get macroevolution, as I have already shown you in a previous post.
this is NOT the ToE which thinks there's no stopping point at all, and
Until you show that mutations stop occurring then you must admit that it doesn't stop.
you couldn't get enough useful change in thousands of years to begin to suggest a transition from micro to macro. All mutations do is replace an allele in a given gene, so all you can EVER get is a new version of the trait governed by that particular gene -- and in most cases you don't even get that. What you get is at best a neutral mutation that doesn't change the phenotype, and at worst, of course, destruction of the gene itself. In any case mutations will never get you past the genomic parameters of the Kind.
Multiple rounds of replacing alleles is exactly what macroevolution is, and it is responsible for the differences seen between the human and chimp genomes.

This message is a reply to:
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