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Author Topic:   Nested Biological Hierarchies
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 34 of 87 (321657)
06-14-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Scrutinizer
06-14-2006 8:52 PM


Re: Greetings
Scrutinizer writes:
All I meant is that assuming the Creator wanted His creation to be understood by man, then it seems logical that He would create such a pattern. If God commanded Adam to name every living creature, a pattern would make this task far easier, allowing him to keep track of each animal by mentally grouping similar kinds. I know from experience that classifying things can make them easier to remember, especially when dealing with large groups.
That won't do as an answer because it would only explains why there is a hierarchical pattern, but gives no reasonable explanation to why that same pattern can be obtained by differet methods, such as taxonomy, and genetic analysis (or did god expect Adam to do some genetic analysis before naming the animals?).
For instance: why would god choose to have man and chimp share a similar set of broken genes? That one is really hard to explain away with some just-so explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Scrutinizer, posted 06-14-2006 8:52 PM Scrutinizer has replied

Replies to this message:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 42 of 87 (322074)
06-15-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
06-15-2006 8:58 AM


29 is pretty darn good
We couldn't "see" such great transitions outright with our eyes. I understand that principle. But it should be overwhelmingly obvious by looking at the fossil record. But alas, that isn't the case. If it was, TalkOrigins would have more than '29 evidences'
This attitude is just laughable. I bet if there were 117 evidences you would have said "But alas, that isn't the case. If it was, TalkOrigins would have more than '117 evidences' ".
29 different lines of evidence for a theory is much better the most theories will ever have. For many theories a single solid line of evidence is all they are aiming at. Off course that begs the question: How many lines of evidence would convince you? I think it's very clear to any unbiased reader how prejudicious you are towards that theory. I wonder why would that be?

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 46 of 87 (322084)
06-16-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hyroglyphx
06-15-2006 11:53 PM


Re: What's Theobald's premise?
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
For as many similarities that any organism shares with its supposed closest ancestor, there are hundreds of more disimilarities. That's as asinine as saying, "Look, the Manatee has eyes and we have eyes, therefore, we're related." That's an interesting deduction, but it would be just likely, if not more so, that a Creator made both organisms with eyes fo which to see.
What about saying that a creator made both humans and chimps with a broken gene for vitamine-C production with which not to produce vitamine-C? Now, that's an asinine statement if I ever saw one. Explain that away if you can. How come both these animals have the same broken gene? Not only that, how come all primates have that broken gene? How come this line of evidence supports the same nested biological hierarchie obtained by taxonomy? There is a very simple explanation: These organism have a commom ancestor. How come you are so prejudiced agaist this simple explanation? There is a very simple explanation for that too: blind religious belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2006 11:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 58 of 87 (322321)
06-16-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Scrutinizer
06-16-2006 12:41 PM


Re: Greetings
Scrutinizer writes:
Could you please provide some examples of "broken" genes that humans and chimps share?
Jazzns has kindly provided a good example of a broken gene in post 53. It is really difficult to fit the broken genes inside the ID picture. The fact that these genes creates a nested hierarchy that agrees well with the hierarchies obtained by other methods is a very strong indeed evidence for evolution that cannot be handwaved away.

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 63 of 87 (322441)
06-16-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Scrutinizer
06-16-2006 2:17 PM


Re: Greetings
Scrutinizer writes:
As for the inherent blind spot, it's no impediment since it is off to the side, and the other eye makes up for the lost information, anyway.
the other eye may make up for the lost information in animals that have both eyes pointing toward the same direction (like us). But that is not the case for animals that have the eyes pointing in oposite directions (like most preys). By your logic then those animal should not have the inside out retina. But they do.

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5551 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 70 of 87 (322932)
06-18-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Hyroglyphx
06-18-2006 11:33 AM


what argument of incredulity?
Most of your post is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.
I think we'd all agree that if beneficial mutations exist, they are so rare that they'd be virtually non-existent.
you assume to much.
Now, how would this occur in your Vitamin C argument? We know that most mammals synthesize their own Vit-C, but humans have to seek it in order to ward off scurvy. For people who scoff at arguments of incredulity, I can't help but notice the glaring contradiction. So, because the claim is that remnants of once functional genes have been abandoned in a non-coding sequence, the fact that humans and chimps share it means nothing
In order for you to acuse me of incredulity, you have to first give me some sort of explanation.(Then if I say "I don't believe it" you could say I'm being incredulous). In your post you gave me nothing , just handwaving. That's not surprising since the standard ID argument that A common creator explains common genetic material is completely inadecuate (Almost crazy really) when you are dealing with broken genetic materia. Just to make it clear:
the fact that humans and chimps share it means nothing
You got to be kidding!!! When I'm grading my students homework and there is a shared piece of information between two papers, If the Info is correct, I usually assume they both hapened to know it and give them credit for it. But if the information is incorrect, I take it as safe to assume that they have been copying from each other. Should I stop doing that now that you straightened me towards the truth that common broken information means nothing? I don't think so. You will have to do way much better than that if you expect anybody to even consider your point of view as vaguely viable. Connecting now with the point of the thread: The real punchline here is the fact that the animals that share this broken gene are exactly the ones that belong to one of the hierarchical groups previously stablished by other means. That way it not only confirms that group, but also is confirmed by it. The conclusion is: Unless ID proponents can come up with somethig much better then the handwaving non-argument that you atempted, ID is prety much a dead in the water still born theory.

This message is a reply to:
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