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Author Topic:   Nested Biological Hierarchies
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 17 of 87 (320509)
06-11-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2006 12:46 PM


Re: What's Theobald's premise?
I just believe as time goes on and as qw are acquiring better technology that we are finding a divergence not convergence.
You must not read the same articles I do, then. With the sequencing of the chimp genome the differences and similarities are coming ever more precisely known - and we share many, many genes that are totally inactivated, particularly in our odod-sensing systems. Many of them are still active in, say, Old World Monkeys who still rely more on smell than we (great apes) do.
For instance, chimps don't have as closely related DNA to humans that was once previously believed.
I think that the recently reported lower percentages of similarity are due to the fact that slightly different measures of the difference are being used. Can one of you biologists clarify?
In whatever case, we are more closely related/have more similar DNA to chimps + bonobos than to anything else alive. Our DNA is more similar to chimp DNA than that of the house mouse. Mus musculus, is to another member of that genus, Mus spretus.
But what does the evidence spell out if the end result or the intermidate steps to take us there has never been witnessed?
It wouldn't spell out things as clearly as it does here in the real world, where they just keep digging up fossils of proto-whales and not-quite-modern-human primates, and keep finding genes that anatomically related groups like artiodactyls and primates share within group to the exclusion of other groups. "Nested hierarchy," they call it.

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 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2006 12:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2006 9:56 PM Coragyps has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 24 of 87 (320658)
06-11-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2006 9:56 PM


Re: What's Theobald's premise?
Read what I wrote again, Nem: I'm not even referring to the relatedness of mice and men (to coin a phrase). I'm saying that M. domesticus and M. spretus, two mice, have less similarity in their DNA (based, however, on just 12,000 genes or so) than do Homo sapiens and Pan paniscus.
Enard, et al., Science, 296, 340-343, (2002).

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 25 of 87 (320659)
06-11-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2006 9:56 PM


Re: What's Theobald's premise?
The traditional evolutionary phyolgenic tree of life was first based on the similarity of physical characteristics.
Which is why Linneaus initially put humans and chimps together in the genus Homo.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 59 of 87 (322327)
06-16-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Scrutinizer
06-16-2006 12:41 PM


Re: Greetings
Could you please provide some examples of "broken" genes that humans and chimps share?
In addition to the GLO gene, there is a urate oxidase pseudogene that has the same "break" in great apes but not monkeys. We and chimps can't oxidize uric acid because of this, so we can get gout - but it may help us live longer, as uric acid is an antioxidant. We share at least dozens of pseudogenes for odorant receptor proteins with various primates, as well. I'd have to look up the particulars, but the more visually-oriented primates, particularly those with three-color vision, seem to have developed sight to the exclusion of being able to smell as many things as a lemur. Same for the vomeronasal organ of great apes and humans - we don't even keep the organ past the fetal stage, so we don't keep many of the genes for its receptors.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 82 of 87 (327631)
06-29-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
06-29-2006 9:44 PM


Re: The evolutionists argument of incredulity
By the same premise I could just as easily ask why natural selection did not choose to keep such a gene, when I think we could all agree that possessing the ability to synthesize our own vitamin C would be most beneficial.
Based on the primate critters that all share that particular break in the GLO gene, it's real probable that the critter that we inherited the break from was a tree-dwelling monkey-ish sort of animal that ate a lot of fruit. The same animals that have the GLO pseudogene tend to have pretty good color vision, to see when fruit are getting ripe and full of vitamin C. And humans living close to the land didn't seem to have that much trouble with vitamin C deficiency - sailors used to get scurvy before they took fruit along to eat, but landlubbers typically get berries or other fruit now and again. (Though city-dwellers in the impoverished Third World may be in the same boat, so to speak, as the pre-Limey sailors were.)
Anyway, we humans got that broken gene from an ancestor that ate a lot of fruit, and for whom the lack of vitamin C synthesis was no handicap. We're kind of stuck with it, as there have been enough random mutations in it since the "break" that the chances of it regaining function through mutation are pretty durn slim.
noticing the parallels of human and chimp similarity is a matter conjecture
The screamingly obvious signs of our relatedness, again, are in the things we share that are "broken." We have a bunch of pseudogenes related to smell sensors in common with great apes - and they are functional genes in other primates. We have broken urate oxidase genes - same pattern. Humans and great apes start growing a vomeronasal organ and its "receiver", the accessory olfactory bulb of the brain as fetuses, but reabsorb the bulb and nearly lose the VNO by the end of infancy. Most other primates keep these bits as social/sexual sense organs.
And all this stuff fits into those nested hierarchies.....

This message is a reply to:
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