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The origin of new alleles

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Author Topic:   The origin of new alleles
RAZD
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Message 9 of 92 (379178)
01-23-2007 9:38 AM 		Reply to: Message 8 by but..what..of...lazarus?
01-23-2007 9:10 AM

Apparently this process can work to create new alleles but from what I can tell its just another mechanism like a copying error.
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So they redefine copy error mutation as not mutation?
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The other argument I have seen with this is that extra copies of DNA segments are "stored" DNA for future use to be brought out when needed, even if they have to be combined with segments from other "stored" DNA to make the necessary new genes.
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Hall's experiments with e-coli and the lactose evolved IC mechanisms for example. Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments
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Thats an excellent point about the asexual reproduction though. Ill check that out once I understand H-R better.
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There is a mechanism for horizontal gene transfer between single cell.
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Welcome to the fray but..what..of...lazarus?
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Enjoy.
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Edited by RAZD, : single cell added
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 Message 8 by but..what..of...lazarus?, posted 01-23-2007 9:10 AM but..what..of...lazarus? has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Quetzal, posted 01-23-2007 11:04 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 12 by kalimero, posted 01-23-2007 5:32 PM RAZD has replied
  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 13 of 92 (379348)
01-23-2007 8:39 PM 		Reply to: Message 11 by but..what..of...lazarus?
01-23-2007 2:43 PM

I think there is a difference between functioning allele variants and raw copies, pseudo-genes and broken genes. Allelic variants arent just raw materials, they actually do something that wasnt being done in that way previously.
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Agreed. Try to explain that to someone that is happy with DNA being like computer code and very little knowledge of genetics.
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That's where the fun commences.
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I suppose if they claim that alleles are being manufactured via the will of the creator ...
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ie god-did-it but left no traces ...
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see Page Not Found | HHMI BioInteractive
for horizontal gene transfer between bacteria
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Enjoy.
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ps type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
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Click on the red arrow reply button for general reply, the green arrow button for specific message reply (also sends email to poster). Check the PEEK button to see how coding was done (can also be done during reply using PEEK MODE at the top right of the "message you're replying to"
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thas the quick course.
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Edited by RAZD, : horizontal
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 14 of 92 (379359)
01-23-2007 8:57 PM 		Reply to: Message 12 by kalimero
01-23-2007 5:32 PM

Homologous recombination
BTW: I think homologous recombination is a mechanism by which the cell repairs broken DNA (both strands) by pairing it with its homologue on the other chromosome and 'filling in the blanks' use recombinational methods.
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From wikipedia
Homologous recombination - Wikipedia
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quote:
Homologous recombination is the process by which two chromosomes, paired up during prophase 1 of meiosis, exchange some distal portion of their DNA. Crossover occurs when two chromosomes,
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Can happen with equal lengths and unequal lengths with different results. Did not see material added back though.
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Perhaps one of the genetic mavens can inform us.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 15 of 92 (379361)
01-23-2007 9:01 PM 		Reply to: Message 10 by Quetzal
01-23-2007 11:04 AM

Indeed. This argument generally revolves around the non-coding regions, tandem repeats, etc. It often takes one of three forms:
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And with only 4 letters in the DNA alphabet it is easy to conceive such combinations only being "old" information being recycled.
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However alphabet is not language or ideas or information, else one could type out the alphabet and cover all knowledge that ever was or will be.
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And as such, new features are then made of "old" information and the concept of "information" is useless as any constraint on the ability of evolution to generate new features.
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Not that they will see it that way.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

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Message 17 of 92 (379609)
01-24-2007 8:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 16 by tyler121515
01-24-2007 12:11 PM

Are alleles really a problem for YEC,
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New alleles that have no history are obviously a problem for anyone who believes that only the touch of supernatural can create. Not all YEC's are so dogmatic.
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The fun start when they have to confront evidence of evolution going one way and then the other - and where both have to be due to loss of information or genetic material by their reasoning.
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Young Earthers seem to be very good at explaining away anything that is brought up as evidence against their hypothesis.
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The hand-waving away of evidence is quite something to see eh? Try them on the age of the earth -- see Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III) for some talking points. But don't expect them to answer ... the usual response is some version of the "gish gallop" ...
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One YEC article I read was that no mutations were involved: only recombination. If so, where did the genetic diversity come from?
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Recombination IS a mutation. Calling it something else does not stop it from happening.
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... what is the REAL genetic mechanism by which dogs diversified from wolves 15,000 years ago?
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Given that dogs and wolve can interbreed - but don't naturally - the real mechanism would be population isolation that then led to an accumulation of mutations that differ in each sub-population. The cause could be the domestication of (proto)dog by man (nreote however that (proto)dog could be another related canine that was more domesticatable than a wolf).
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The dog ones have since been heavily selected by humans for a variety of purposes, and there is some discussion whether chijuajuas and great danes would breed naturally and hence may represent ends of what is known as a ring species.
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Above all, keep it fun eh?
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Enjoy.
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Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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