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Author Topic:   New Questions--moral perspective
JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 5 of 73 (90475)
03-05-2004 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by booboocruise
03-05-2004 1:56 AM


Is fundamental Christianity truly a threat to your cause?
Fundamentalist Christianity is not in itself a threat to the causes of good science and good education. Pseudoscience is.
After all, if you believe that an open-minded education system with instruction from many various perspectives is the cornerstone of a free education, why is evolution the sole theory directed in a classroom setting (I mean, LEGALLY teachers have the right to discuss creation and its principles from an unbiased point of view at any time in a classroom)?
Because there is only one theory to teach that is scientific, not falsified, and non-religious: evolution. The U.S. Constitution prohibits teaching religious theries as science in science classes, and common sense prohibits teaching pseudoscience or falsified theories as science in a science class. It's fine to teach about creationism in comparative religion or sociology or psychology or history of science or similar classes, but creationism just ain't science; it's dogmatic religion. And, so far and for the foreseeable future, ID ain't science either (unless it develops to be something more than what it is now, just an argument from ignorance).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by booboocruise, posted 03-05-2004 1:56 AM booboocruise has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Servant2thecause, posted 03-05-2004 10:23 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 13 of 73 (90540)
03-05-2004 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Servant2thecause
03-05-2004 10:23 AM


Re: Interestting...
Actually, the U.S. Constitution disallows, in the first amendment, "a law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof..." but it DOES NOT prohibit teachers from taking class time to discuss alternatives to the evolution theory.
True. However, there are no scientific, unfalsified, non-religious alternatives to discuss. Check back when you have one.
By the way, in 1980 the supreme court ruled that the law forbids states to REQUIRE the teaching of creation, but it does not forbid the teaching of creation either. check the lawbooks.
Reference please? The classic cases in this controversy are McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, Edwards v. Aguillard, Epperson v. Arkansas, Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District, Daniel v. Waters, Wright v. Houston I.S.D.; none of these were in 1980. And please quote the portion of whatever decision you mean that you think "does not forbid the teaching of creation either."
The decision closest in time to 1980 is McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, in 1982. The ruling was pretty clear that "creation science" failed the Lemon test decisively and is therefore religion, and the Court made it clear that "creation science" would have to change a lot before it could pass the Lemon test:
quote:
The two model approach of the creationists is simply a contrived dualism (22) which has not scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose. ... Section 4(a) lacks legitimate educational value because "creation-science" as defined in that section is simply not science. Several witnesses suggested definitions of science. A descriptive definition was said to be that science is what is "accepted by the scientific community" and is "what scientists do." The obvious implication of this description is that, in a free society, knowledge does not require the imprimatur of legislation in order to become science.
More precisely, the essential characteristics of science are:
(1) It is guided by natural law;
(2) It has to be explanatory by reference to nature law;
(3) It is testable against the empirical world;
(4) Its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and
(5) It is falsifiable. (Ruse and other science witnesses).
Creation science as described in Section 4(a) fails to meet these essential characteristics.
Also, if evolution is such a deeply-proven FACT, then why on earth is there still so much controversy
Because a few religious cranks are attempting to foist their religion on the general public. Although many people in the U.S. believe in somthing vaguely like creationism, those that really want it taught in the classroom are a small but vocal minority.
in a nationwide pole on MSNBC in 2002, approximately 55% of those surveyed said they did not object to the teaching of creation science in the classroom
Well, I'll accept your assertion ... but how many said that we should teach "creation science" in the classsroom, and exactly how were the questions worded? Not objecting is different from supporting.
But it's moot, anyway; both science and Constitutional interpretations are not the result of public debate. Another quote from McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education is relevant:
quote:
The defendants presented Dr. Larry Parker, a specialist in devising curricula for public schools. He testified that the public school's curriculum should reflect the subjects the public wants in schools. The witness said that polls indicated a significant majority of the American public thought creation science should be taught if evolution was taught. The point of this testimony was never placed in a legal context. No doubt a sizeable majority of Americans believe in the concept of a Creator or, at least, are not opposed to the concept and see nothing wrong with teaching school children the idea.
The application and content of First Amendment principles are not determined by public opinion polls or by a majority vote. Whether the proponents of Act 590 constitute the majority or the minority is quite irrelevant under a constitutional system of government. No group, no matter how large or small, may use the organs of government, of which the public schools are the most conspicuous and influential, to foist its religious beliefs on others.
So, until "creation science" becomes science rather than dogmatic religion, it will not be taught in U.S. public schools.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Servant2thecause, posted 03-05-2004 10:23 AM Servant2thecause has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 54 of 73 (91013)
03-07-2004 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Servant2thecause
03-07-2004 6:25 PM


Constitutionally, there is nothing wrong with teaching creationism.
The Federal courts, especially the Supreme Court, beg to differ.
Please provide support for your claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Servant2thecause, posted 03-07-2004 6:25 PM Servant2thecause has not replied

  
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