9/11 thread

The majority of palestinians left because they were advised to get out of the way of invading armies coming to "drive the Jews into the sea." Yes, Israel pushed some out too. why would it be surprising that 5th columnists colluding with those wanting to slaughter the Jews were treated as lethal danger they were? But the Jews did not wholesale push out those who chose to stay. that's why Israel has one million Arab citizens, who sit in parliament and on the judiciary, even the supreme court. Moreover, Israel is a smaller percentage Jewish than is the US Christian. beware anti-Israel propaganda. Tiny Israel with tiny population has little geopolitical power vis a vis the huge Islamic world with well over one billion people in nearly 100 nations and oil. The leaders of almost all these nations consider democracy to be the enemy, so act and vote at the UN accordingly.

In the same way that the Crusders and the Spanish Conquistadors conquered for God. Christianty is no defferent here. This is just silly playground logic. They fought each other! You also conveniently ignore the butchery that was the Crusades. Of course, but you seem to imply that Christianity hasn't had similar phases of repressive fundamentalism. This is flat out wrong.You breathlessly recount a supposed tradition of Islamic conquest without providing any context!Edited by RickJB, : Tags.

First, the crusades were a response to Islamic aggression against Christians. Just how do you think the then predominantly Christian ME became Islamic. Hint: it wasn't voluntary conversion. Just how do you think the Jews were driven from their homeland (the Romans booted out many, but not nearly all, and many returned later on)? Hint: The jews didn't invites Arab armies in.Second, whereas christians have conquered for G-d, that was contrary to the faith. There is next to nothing, and certainly no theme, in the bible that orders Christians to go forever forward martially - I stress, martially - conquering the world for jesus. Only conversion is sought. In contrast, the koran has as its central tenet a command to conquer forever into the future for Allah. That has epochal implications going forward.I assumed you knew this context. Now you have it.

Fundamentalism means adherence to the fundamental scriptural tenets of the faith. The Christian fundamentals based on the Christian scriptures are nonviolence and spreading the word so that some may believe. The Muslim fundamentals based on the Muslim scriptures are a combination of peaceful and violent aggression in the spreading of their word, violent if the peaceful don't work, and they have the ultimate goal of conquering the world for Allah by whichever means works.What everybody complains about in Christian history was FAR from the fundamentals of Christianity, it was a complete departure from the fundamentals, whereas similar action in Islam is true to their fundamentals.I know Steve said this, but I thought I'd chime in.

No, Islam was an imperialist army that invaded Europe, after taking the Middle East for Allah from the indigenous Jews and Christians. This is not playground logic. The common presentation of the Crusades as some kind of unprovoked aggression is just anti-western propaganda.

Not exactly. The Crusades began as a response to the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I's request for troops to help with skirmishes with Muslims in Anatolia (now Turkey). Pope Urban took this request and turned it into a call to retake Jerusalem. It was the Pope of preached conquest. Incidentally, when the Christians got there in 1099 the massacred the cities population (including its Jews). The Ottomans got a foothold as the Byzantine Empire weakened and fell. Why wouldn't they? It was a prudent military decision from their point of view!A funny aside: By the Fourth Crusade of 1209 there was already a growing split between the Eastern and Western chuches. Against this backdrop the Crusade was co-opted by Venetian traders and diverted to Byzantium. A Christian city on the threshold of the Islamic world was sacked by the leading Christian city of the era! So much for Christian solidarity in the face of the Islamic threat!!Why do you and Faith need to see the Islamic world as history's "bad guy"? They were simply fighting their own corner, as we were.Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

It wasn't that simple. Read my response in post 111.

They had nothing to fight. Their motives were expansion and conquest. Not that that is something new under the sun or intrinsically evil in itself since it's common to humanity, but my reaction is to this constant refrain we hear these days about the evil Crusades without a single mention of who Europe was up against and why.

Steve's question refers to the original "conversion" of the Middle East by Mohammed, centuries before the Ottoman Empire. It was a bloody forcing of his new religion on the Arabs.

Did you actually read what I posted in 111?Look, everytime you point to some evil in Islam's history I can give you one from Christianity's. This is History, not some cheesy Hollywood movie with "goodies and baddies".Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

Your post shows that the situation was complex. Fine. That's better than most do with this subject. I don't know a lot about the history of that era and it's nice to see some balance brought into the discussion.But again, I react to the anti-Christian bias that is always coming up here and one form of it is how evil the Crusades were, totally out of the historical context.Some here actually treat Islam as some kind of poor victim of evil Christians. Whitewashing Islam seems to have become the no. 1 project of political correctness, oddly enough since we were their victims on 9/11. Islam's true mission -- IN THEIR OWN WRITINGS -- of conquering the world for Allah by whatever means are necessary, is denied, in fact unknown to most people, who buy the propaganda. Their goals are not the usual conquest for worldly power (in fact what on earth is rational in terms of the usual motives for war in attacking the symbols of our power?) -- they are taking the world for their God. Violently is fine with them, that's in their scriptures too. Murdering infidels can be service to Allah. Etc. But all this is irrationally denied, and a false equivalence between their actions and the actions of the west is constantly upheld against all the available evidence. It's about MOTIVES, RickB, and therefore about what to expect in future and how to deal with it, not about a tally sheet listing the bare facts of who did what to whom in the past. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This reads like the sort of paranoia one hears from the bully-pulpit.

Mohammed set off on an imperialist march in the ME. Islam was practising Islamism from its birth, as decreed in the koran. While Mohammed was still alive, Arabs invaders got quite far in the name of allah, and very soon after his birth, surprising far.So, while the reconquest of jerusalem was the announced cause, it was, in fact, only the final spark after years of Muslim imperialism throughout the region and beyond, as one Christian domain after the other was taken. In other words, they were not fighting in
their own corner," they created that corner through imperialist invasions, and then they defended it.the essence of the issue is that while most western imperialism was about treasure and glory and power, most Islamism imperialism was, and still is, about spreading the faith. Moreover, as i said, Christianity does not have as a central tenet a demand, a duty, as a means to heaven, the martial conquest of others. That is a fundamental difference. and it is this Islamism call to jihad that underlies Islamism to this very day. To ignore this is to deny oneself knowledge of the enemy.

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The topic is ZIONISM, not this purist idea you are pushing here.

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That's the purist idea that YOU attributed to ZIONISM.

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Israel did NOT ever force anyone out. That's just propaganda by the Muslim states, who are the ones who created the refugee situation by attacking Israel and warning Arabs to leave.

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That WAS the Israeli government's official line. I used to believe it myself. But it wasn't true. Palestinians left for a number of reasons - but a significant portion left because they were orced out by the Israeli army - and the Israelis admit it.y

Its commanded in their scriptures and they take their scriptures as given by God. Pay attention. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.