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Author | Topic: Kent Hovind's debates, can someone help? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Buz, do you think that fire-breathing dragons exist? I don't think so. Did they ever exist? With dinosaurs I suppose it might be a possibility with some kind of a blow torch effect which would not contact tissue of the mouth with no contact, but that's as far as I go. There is figurative texts in some Biblical passages depicting consuming fires in connection with living beings.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
With dinosaurs I suppose it might be a possibility with some kind of a blow torch effect which would not contact tissue of the mouth with no contact, but that's as far as I go. Just to entertain the possibility, in your organic blowtorch effect, what's the ignition source? While I don't for a minute believe that fire-breathing dragons have any basis in reality, if I had to suppose a real-world organism with some kind of fire breath attack, I'd suggest an effect akin to bombadier beetles - a hot chemical spray. Then again it wouldn't surprise me if Hovind believed that it just worked by magic.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Ahh, but it seems the case with Hovind that he thinks the bits in the Bible regarding those passages are not firgurative, but quite literal. I mean, he believes that the emperor of China was breeding fire-breathing dragons a few centuries ago. So, why do you think that Hovind is a source of accurate, reliable information when he says stuff like that? Could it be that he makes stuff up off the top of his head and then proclaims it fact? Perhaps the reason you doubt him about the dragons is because you know there really isn't any evidence at all for these make-believe creatures. Well, since you know even less about the "Origin of Species", having never read it, perhaps you might delay believing what Hovind is saying about it until you read the book. If he says such obviously outrageous and unsupported things regarding the existence of dragons just to convince an unknowing audience, perhaps he would say similarly outrageous and false things about "Origin of Species" to an audience who has never read the book, right? Do you really just go ahead and believe what anyone tells you just so long as they tell you what you want to hear?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
bump
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
bump
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Schraf, I am saying I don't really know whether Hovind is correct about fire dragons or not. I've said that I don't agree with him about the young universe and some other, but by and large, I think he is quite credible in what he says in his lectures. You people pick out a few items and discredit him altogether on the basis of these few. That's not good science either, imo.
As for the reading of Darwin's "Origin of Species," for that matter likely most of my posting opponents of Biblical debates have not read the entire Bible either, so imo, this is a bogus implication on your part that I don't know enough about Darwinism to state emphatically what I've said concerning the subject. Have you read the Bible all the way, word for word, cover to cover, Schraf? If you have, you're likely a small minority of evos here in town who have. Having said the above, there's a big difference in the reading of a book and the long time study of a book in depth, so whether one has read a book or has become apprised on the subject matter of a given subject are both considerations to consider.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Just to entertain the possibility, in your organic blowtorch effect, what's the ignition source? While I don't for a minute believe that fire-breathing dragons have any basis in reality, if I had to suppose a real-world organism with some kind of fire breath attack, I'd suggest an effect akin to bombadier beetles - a hot chemical spray. Well, I did say considering the possibility was as far as I wanted to go, but bioluminescense in sea and land animals which is as I understand is produced by a heat related chemical reaction involving luciferin and luciferace, causing the oxidation of the luciferin in the process might be a source of significant heat and light if soumehow applied to some kind of large dinosaur dragon type animal. I'm not saying that's what I believe, mind you, but luminenscense bugs and sealife are quite a remarkable thing too, imo. Lucifer/luciferin/luciferace...........hmmm, interesting.........must be the scientists incorporated the evil Biblical angel of light into their scientific terminology here.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
which is as I understand is produced by a heat related chemical reaction involving luciferin and luciferace,
You understand incorrectly. The bioluminescent reactions I know of (and I did my proposition oral exam on them in grad school) don't generate noticeable heat. They just make visible light.And the names, as you likely know, do come from exactly the same place as "lucifer" - "light bearer."
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3737 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
I've always worried about Noah taking woodworm onto his ark. However, if Hovind is right that the Emperor of China was breeding fire-breathing dragons a few centuries ago and this was after Noah and his ark, I think that woodworm would be the least of his problems! How did they manage to prevent the ark being incinerated by the dragons? I suppose that with all the water around they could put out the fires very easily, but it must have been a bit fraught on there with the dragons and the methane from the rest of the zoo! ROFLMAO
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You think he is quite credible, even though the two major Creationist storefront organizations discourage their readers from taking him seriously? You think he is credible, even though he can be and has been demonstrated to be incorrect and/or inaccurate regarding nearly every part of any scientific claims he makes? You think "Dr." Hovind is credible, even though he purchased his PhD from a diploma mill in an obvious effort to present the appearence of having studied long and hard to earn an advanced degree without actually doing the work? I guess your criterion of how to judge someone's credibility has more to do with their telling you what you want to hear rather than if they are actually worthy of respect.
quote: Um, no. There are many websites correcting and showing Hovind's lies, misinformation, and errors. Many threads on this site alone deal with his nonsense. Haven't you ever read anything that disagrees with him with the slightest bit of open-mindedness?
quote: But Buz, if you haven't read the Origin of Species, you have no idea if what Hovind is saying about it is true or not. So, no, I DON'T think you know enough about what Darwin's attitude about race was as recorded in Origins unless you read the relevant parts yourself. Remember, I suggested that you at least read the relevant parts of Origins if you don't read the whole thing. (Of course, I DO suggest you read the whole thing...)
quote: Nope, not quite all of it. I have probably read about 70%-80% of it. I couldn't quite make it through the geneologies and other really boring, laborious parts of the OT, but I have read the gospels several times. Have you read that much of anything by Darwin, Gould, Mayr or Dawkins?
quote: Very true. A lot of what Hovind says and writes shows that he is clueless about much science and history.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Many threads on this site alone deal with his nonsense. Haven't you ever read anything that disagrees with him with the slightest bit of open-mindedness? I judge Hovind on what he gives credible evidence for which is a lot more than what you're giving him credit for. Have you actually heard him lecture for two hours at a sitting? I've heard him on two hour segments on TV several times and much of what he says is very credible and interesting stuff which I believe anyone would be hard pressed to refute. I'm not including the fire dragons in this, btw, but I'm not discounting it altogether either. Nor am I including in this his claim that there are a few dinosaurs around. I don't think so, but believe he in sincere in his belief that there are some. I believe he is very sincere in what he believes, whether right or wrong. As to your question about my reading of Darwin, I've read very little except exerpts from time to time for research purposes, etc. Having said that, what have I said about him that you are ready to refute?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
You understand incorrectly. The bioluminescent reactions I know of (and I did my proposition oral exam on them in grad school) don't generate noticeable heat. They just make visible light. I didn't specify as to how much heat I simply stated that heat was involved in the bioluminescent chemical reaction. Certainly a bug is not going to produce a noticeable amount of heat compared to, say a large animal if the process were measured in proportion. Can you document that I am mistaken?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Certainly a bug is not going to produce a noticeable amount of heat compared to, say a large animal if the process were measured in proportion. You know those plastic light sticks that kids have around Halloween? They use the same chemicals, right? I've never noticed them generate any heat whatsoever, and there's a considerable amount of chemical reaction occuring there. So, yeah. I'd say that you're pretty much mistaken - it's a very, very low heat reaction. There's no amount of the chemicals involved that would generate the heat you're talking about.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
a better model would be the bombadier beetle that actually ejects material rather than create a light inside.
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Bull's-eye beetle
(next up ... IC ... except that it is refuted by Dawkins already) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, it's possible that all of us, including everybody at ICR and AiG, have misjudged him. Perhapstoy would like to present Hovidn's alleged well-documented claims to see if they hold up to scrutiny? I'd be happy to do all of the research if you present some of the claims you consider credible.
quote: No. I have, however, read some transcripts of his speeches and also some radio broadcasts, and that's where I got the stuff about the fire-breathing dragons being bred by the Emporer of China.
quote: OK, bring it on. Just list his claims and I'll attempt to refute them.
quote: So, sincerety in belief makes it OK for him to repeat things that aren't supported by evidence?
quote: There "sincere believers" in all sorts of things, including UFO's, Astrology, the existence of fairies, and of all the religions of the world. The only reason you give Hovind the time of day is because he is telling you what you want to hear. The problem is, you don't know or care enough about the truth to find out for yourself if he is full of crap (as most people believe) or not.
quote: That he was calling for the extermination of non-whites, or that he was any more racist than any other English Victorian Christian intellectual male.
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