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Author
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Topic: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 121 of 305 (200342)
04-19-2005 10:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
04-19-2005 9:47 AM
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Spirit not Letter
quote:
Matt 15:4-11
You missed the mark again. Manipulating the scripture doesn't show that one should follow the spirit vs the letter. They nullified the letter of God's word for their own tradition. That is my contention with Faith posts.
quote:
Jesus is lambasting the Pharisees for following the letter of the Law while ignoring the spirit of it.
No he wasn't. He was lambasting them for making up rules that served no spiritual purpose and not sticking to the letter of God's word. They were following the letter of their own words. Instead of following the letter of the word as in honoring mother and father, they manipulated the words to suit their own purpose.
quote:
What is the greatest commandment?
Greatest doesn't mean only.
quote:
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
The foundation for the rules doesn't negate the rules.
"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 9:47 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 10:31 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Spirit not Letter
purpledawn writes: The foundation for the rules doesn't negate the rules. I agree! I would only add that following the rules can never be accomplished through "trying". The rules can never be done perfectly. That is why Christianity believes in a perfect leader that alone followed ALL of the rules perfectly. Following Christ is not about trying to be a Holy Theocrat! Following Christ is about trusting God. Knowing and communing with Him. Allowing Him to purify your heart, and then joyfully living a life unto Him. Not religiously, but practically.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by purpledawn, posted 04-19-2005 10:23 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 123 of 305 (200361)
04-19-2005 11:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
04-19-2005 2:27 AM
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Classic Christian Fundamentalist behavior.
The site you use as your source is not even evidence. It is simply more Anti-Semitic rhetoric. Sorry Faith but that seems like a great example of the dishonesty of the Christians, not of any fault of the Jews. And it certainly has nothing to do with the Jews at the time of Christ.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 2:27 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 134 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 12:16 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 124 of 305 (200362)
04-19-2005 11:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 110 by Faith
04-19-2005 3:48 AM
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Re: Apostles and elders
There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus. Why do you exclude the second wave of (IIRC) fifty that were sent out?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 3:48 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 135 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 12:17 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 125 of 305 (200365)
04-19-2005 11:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 112 by Legend
04-19-2005 4:33 AM
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Re: It's standard Christian theology
quote:
you're probably right. He seems to have been influenced a lot by hellenistic ideas, so he probably was exposed to Greek culture early on, even if he was of Jewish origins.
He was born in Tarsus in what is now Turkey, in a Diaspora city rather than in Judea, and knew Greek and much about Greek culture, as most Jews did at the time, but he was as Jewish as they get, having been taught by Gamaliel, a well known Pharisee. He was not "influenced" by anything Greek, however. Everything he teaches is based on the Hebrew Bible. I suppose this answer should have been to Arachnophilia. Oh well. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 10:36 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by Legend, posted 04-19-2005 4:33 AM | | Legend has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Oh come on.
quote:
Yes, but since Jesus was objecting to many of those rules of behavior that are given in the Talmud and practiced by the Jews of His day, this shows that He did not regard it as scripture, as He would not object to scripture, which came from God Himself.
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assuming his views were out of line with the talmud.
Not "assuming" -- it's in the NT. As jar even seems to say, Jesus' objection to the Pharisees' Sabbath rules was an objection to the Talmudic teachings on the Sabbath.
quote:
The Jews regard it as given by God but Christians don't and Jesus didn't. He criticized the Pharisees for their Talmudic views which He called "traditions of men" that were not in the spirit of scripture.
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this then also rules out the epistles as scripture. (ignoring the fact that jesus obviously wouldn't have recognized ANY of the nt as scripture, since none of it had been written yet)
You are wrong. The Church agreed that the epistles were inspired by God.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Apostles and elders
quote:
In mainstream Christianity there are no more apostles.
= = = = =
mormons have apostles. catholics have popes. both of which serve the same functions, and are fairly mainstream.
Again, the Mormons are not mainstream, they are considered a heresy by the mainstream -- evangelical -- Christian churches. The Pope has to be called mainstream, yes, but again the evangelical churches consider him a heresy too.
quote:
There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus.
= = =
that doesn't include paul.
You don't know the New Testament if you exclude Paul. He is clearly an apostle. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 10:44 AM
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: It's standard Christian theology
quote:
yeah, i've noticed a lot of hellenistic tendencies. but i don't know enough about the greek history and the hellenistic jews to really make a call on this. all i know is that paul's arguments are not only diametrically opposed to jewish traditions, but blatantly misunderstand them as well.
So says the self-appointed scholar of scripture. Have you spoken directly with God about this? Because Paul did, and what he teaches in the New Testament is GOD's interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures which the Jews did not understand. Jesus' was continually upbraiding the Pharisees for their lack of understanding of their own scriptures. Paul taught what Jesus Himself showed Him. You make the BIG mistake of following false Jewish teaching. You are following letter rather than spirit, flesh rather than spirit.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Two Virgin Births
quote:
But the Isaiah prophecy didn't have a present tense fulfillment at all. there was no child in Ahaz' time that was given as a sign to him. The sign was only a messianic prophecy. There has only been one virgin birth in history and that was Jesus Christ.
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You claim the prophecy was only for Jesus, therefore you need to show me that Jesus fulfilled the entire prophecy.
First, are you conceding that the passage does not have two referents after all? If so, we can proceed: Second, the part that I have been referring to is the virgin birth of a child to be known as "God with us." That's the entire part of the prophecy I've been referring to. Jesus fulfilled it. The rest contains a lot of reference to Ahaz' time and some mixture of messianic reference also. I recommend that you read a good Christian commentary if you'd like to understand the whole thing. It's not my job to educate you.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: It's standard Christian theology
Jesus teaches on this all the time, though it turns out it is Paul who uses the actual terms "letter" versus "spirit." Jesus' teaching in the entire chapter of Matthew 23 is all about the Pharisee's literal external obedience to made up rules while ignoring the spiritual meaning of God's law. Here is some of it:
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and *self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' Paul uses the words letter and spirit in these passages:
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 131 of 305 (200374)
04-19-2005 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
04-19-2005 9:47 AM
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Re: Apostles and elders/What is and is not Scripture?
quote:
since Jesus was objecting to many of those rules of behavior that are given in the Talmud and practiced by the Jews of His day, this shows that He did not regard it as scripture, as He would not object to scripture, which came from God Himself.
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I do not agree. Jesus recognised scripture from the O.T. for what it was. His disagreement was centered on the behavior of the Jews who were outwardly pious and inwardly adamant of their own worthiness.
The issue was not the rules. The issue was misuse and/or manipulation of those rules.
The point is that the TALMUD is NOT the Old Testament, it is a COMMENTARY on the Old Testament, and the Jews always followed the Talmud and NOT the teachings of God in the OT. The TALMUD taught the LETTER OVER THE SPIRIT. It is the TALMUD that taught the misuse of God's law. It is the TALMUD that added all the burdensome rules that were not in keeping with God's spirit. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 11:05 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 9:47 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Talmud
quote:
You don't know how Jesus regarded the Oral Law.
He upbraided the Pharisees over and over again for following rules that were in the Oral Law. That's how we know how Jesus regarded the Oral Law.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 133 of 305 (200376)
04-19-2005 12:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
04-19-2005 11:52 AM
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Re: Two Virgin Births
quote:
First, are you conceding that the passage does not have two referents after all?
I never claimed that it had two. There was one child born to a young woman as a sign to Ahaz for the prophecy that followed.
quote:
Second, the part that I have been referring to is the virgin birth of a child to be known as "God with us." That's the entire part of the prophecy I've been referring to. Jesus fulfilled it. The rest contains a lot of reference to Ahaz' time and some mixture of messianic reference also.
So now you are splitting the prophecy. Where does God show that prophecies are to be split in this manner?
quote:
I recommend that you read a good Christian commentary if you'd like to understand the whole thing. It's not my job to educate you.
It is your job to support your claim. I've seen nothing in the Bible that supports splitting prophecy as you have done.
"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 11:52 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by Faith, posted 04-19-2005 12:20 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 134 of 305 (200377)
04-19-2005 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 123 by jar
04-19-2005 11:27 AM
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Re: Classic Christian Fundamentalist behavior.
quote:
The site you use as your source is not even evidence. It is simply more Anti-Semitic rhetoric. Sorry Faith but that seems like a great example of the dishonesty of the Christians, not of any fault of the Jews. And it certainly has nothing to do with the Jews at the time of Christ.
It looked like an odd site to me, like something cultish, but I didn't see that it was anti-semitic. However, I believe it is right about the Talmud and I see nothing odd or anti-semitic about that. Why is there a problem with this reasoning: the Jews after all reject the claims that Jesus is God, and what are you going to believe about him as a mere man if it is claimed he was born of a virgin but that he must be a bastard? And what are you going to believe about a mere man who performs miracles but that he was merely a magician? And what are you going to believe about a mere man who died the death of a criminal on the cross? Certainly not that he was a perfect sinless man who died in the place of all us criminals to save us, right? It's about as straightforward a way of interpreting Jesus as a mere man as you can get. You are free to reject it however. As I said, it's controversial.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 123 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 11:27 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 135 of 305 (200378)
04-19-2005 12:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 124 by jar
04-19-2005 11:29 AM
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Re: Apostles and elders
quote:
There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus.
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Why do you exclude the second wave of (IIRC) fifty that were sent out?
Because the mainstream evangelical church only recognizes as apostles the original twelve plus Paul.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 11:29 AM | | jar has not replied |
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