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Author | Topic: A personal question | |||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
[QUOTE]Schafinator on whether or not being gay is a person's rightful state: [B]Sure, why not?[/QUOTE]
[/B] In that case, why are there two sexes?
[QUOTE][B]Can you tell me how people of who are in loving, committed relationships are a detriment to anyone in a comparable way to murderers or thieves just because they are the same gender?[/QUOTE] [/B] I've given a commentary on my analogy in the post above. Suffice to say I don't think someone that is gay is some "bad" person like a murderer or a thief. However genetically predisposed murderers (IMO) make an excellent analogy to why just being prone to something does not necessarily make it morally acceptable.
[QUOTE][B]I have always considered something to be immoral if it is detrimental to innocents. How are gay people hurting anyone by loving each other?[/QUOTE] [/B] Just because something is not directly hurting someone does not necessarily make that behavior morally acceptable. Why homosexuality is immoral becomes obvious if you presuppose thatthe sexes were created for a reason, and that procreation plays a role in the spiritual order of things. I'm not going to further discuss theology because you (Schrafinator) have an unfortuante tendency to belittle my beliefs but I just want to point out that you do not understand my worldview and your model of ethical values does not work in this discussion for that very reason. A problem here is that love does not provide moral justification either. A person could have a deep and loving relationship with another person. It could be "true love". But that person could also be married and having an affair with their "true love". In which case it would be immoral no matter how much they loved each other.
[QUOTE][B]My whole point about the Bonobos is that homosexuality is not some wierd, cultural peculiarity to some humans, but a widespread primate behavior.[/QUOTE] [/B] But that doesn't make it an appropriate thing for humans to do, just because it occurs in nature. As you pointed out, in nature people would have children during the pre-teen years. That doesn't make it a good idea, or morally acceptable.
[QUOTE][B]and in reality serves to strengthen bonds in the Bonobo social network.[/QUOTE] [/B] "Strengthening bonds" doesn't justify a behavior either. Great bonds can form in war, but that doesn't mean running around shooting people is always a moral thing to do. Gang rituals and hazings also come to mind when we talk about social bonds. [This message has been edited by gene90, 10-20-2002]
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
quote: Lets see... The OT was initially revealed to the Jews... Now I get it. The OT is their reason for all those manslaughter and atrocities they commit to the Palestinians.
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
-deleted double post
[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 10-21-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Ah, but you are forgetting that Bonobos and human females have sex even when they are not "in heat", or fertile, which means that there is another reason for intercourse. That other reason is to strengthen social bonds.
quote: So why do human females crave sex at times when they aren't fertile, and why do human males find females interesting at times when the females aren't fertile?
quote: No, it certainly IS part of the naturalistic worldview. There are lots of mammals which display homosexual behavior. Cows mount each other when they are in heat. Cats and dogs will mount the same sex counterpart to display dominance. Bottlenose dolphins will form same-sex pairs and engage in sex. It is still around because it doesn't hurt anyone, and it actually helps with social bonding.
quote: But what harm does homosexuality cause to herterosexual people, Gene? How can you possibly equate the act of murder with two people who happen to be of the same gender loving each other? That is completely irrational. Why do you list only things like "genetically-predisposed to murder or to be violent" in the same sentence as homosexuality? I am not saying that "a genetic predisposition = morally OK." I am saying that the LDS statement is utterly wrong in it's strong implication that gay people aren't that way by nature. If you want to think that being gay is immoral, then fine, but it is not rational in the least to say that it isn't natural, as there is a lot o' homosexual behavior in nature. You have got to ignore a lot of evidence to say that it isn't natural. As a consequence, you are then left with the dilemma; God made everything, so if God made gay people that way, why are we supposed to condemn homosexuality?
quote: And vice-versa. That's because there are very few people who are "totally" gay or "totally" hetero. Most people are somewhere in the middle of the bell curve, and since there is strong social pressure for most to be hetero, that is the way they live.
quote: If your reason for thinking so is because it says so in the Bible, then you are being selective. It's also considered an abomination to wear mixed fiber clothing and for crippled people to go to church.
[QUOTE][B]Certain behaviors, when not checked, are very bad for such associations. Homosexuality is not one of those behaviors.[/QUOTE] quote: I suspected as much. I am around lots of openly-gay people, as my town is one of the few which allows same-gender partners to adopt children. I have many gay co-workers and friends.
quote: God doesn't want people to be in loving, comitted relationships? Didn't God make them the way they are?
quote: So? Sex for humans isn't only about reproduction, otherwise we wouldn't have the ability to respond sexually when we aren't fertile. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-21-2002] [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-21-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Come on, Gene. Social bonding and cooperation is considered to be one of the most important reasons humans ever became as successful as they did. The reason bonds form in war is not because of the shooting, but because of the coming together against a common foe. It's funny you should mention war, though, because I think it was the ancient greeks who's soldiers used to have gay lovers because they believed that the loyalty and devotion would be greater, thus would protect each other more fiercely. It is clear that you have decided ahead of time that your church's teaching is correct and nothing will ever make you think otherwise. It is a lot like talking to a very intellectually-nimble brick wall. BTW, can I assume that you concede that the LDS statement on homosexuality doesn't actually say that gay people are "naturally-gay"? Also, I am sorry that you equate criticism of LDS church policies with belittling them. Quite the contrary; if they weren't so influential I woulnd't bother.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: The scary part about your comment is that it is essentially true. The Bible does give the Jews permission to kill and enslave anyone non-Jewish. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3246 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Far from their minds and far from reality are two different things. I have seen many animals which play with their offspring.
quote: And I have seen or heard many of the comments by these "mainstream" people that you refer to that indicate to me that they understand neither science in general nor evolution via NS in specific. Besides, science is not a popularity contest. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Was thinking about this and realized I have a point to make about it...
quote: I would agree with you that this is an immoral act because an innocent (the spouse being cheated on) is being deceived and betrayed, and therefore injured. This is not what I was talking about when I asked you if you held love as a value. I do not think that love is an excuse for hurting and betraying others, which is how you have portrayed it in your example above. I am talking about two unattached people falling in love and wanting to make a life together, and those two people happen to be of the same gender. I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for an anti-gay stance by any Christian group. ------------------"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow- minded." -Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I am interested in knowing what you consider "natural" in that case.
quote: This is interesting. It seem to be a request that the side making the iconoclastic claim provide the evidence. What is interesting is the assumption that Schraf and I are making the iconoclastic claim. I think you'd be hared pressed to back that up. Many human cultures have incorporated homosexuality into the social order.
quote: This is an oversimplification. Think about that next time your wife says "Ride 'em Cowboy" Look around. Sex is everywhere. Do you really think all that is about making babies?
quote: Fair enough. However, there are more roles to play than that of breeders. Again, you are oversimplifying the issue. Humans are not brute force survivors. We don't lay thousands of eggs so that several survive. We make a very few offspring and take care of them well. We do that within the structure of a society, and not everyone has to be a sperm donor or an egg factory/incubator.
quote: Except that homosexuality DOES exist in nature. We ARE nature, Gene.
quote: It has been around a very long time and the race isn't dying off. This should make you wonder about the validity of your argument. Homosexuality could be due to the extreme similarity of the sexes. It could be that it provides some positive social bonding. It could be that it simply isn't harmful.
[quote][b]Even if she could prove it were natural it would not mean it was "right". Moral values transcend simply trying to transmit genes.[/quote] [/b] I suppose moral values would have to be different from gene transmission. Gene transmission is amoral.
quote: The issue is not whether the church allows murder and rape but whether murder and rape are the same class of behavior as homosexuality.
quote: I am not arguing that genetic predisposition makes a behavior acceptable. Shraf perhaps, is making that argument. (I do, however, argue against the idea that homosexuality is not natural.)
quote: Certainly, in part. But do you truly believe that male/male sex or female/female sex is an crime equivalent to murder?
quote: You could if you had evidence for the belief.
quote: Nor can the concept of natural vs. unnatural be used to condemn homosexuality.
quote: quote: No need to get around it. Its just that most of the time whether one sports an in-ie or an out-ie makes no difference. The only time it does matter is when reproduction is desired. Ten -- ok, if you're a guy, twenty minutes-- before and five seconds after, it makes no difference what your sexual preference happens to be.
quote: Can't really argue here.
[quote]It is easy for some of you here on this board to show tolerance towards a minority of society like homosexuals and at the same time show intolerance towards the LDS church (or whoever) because they don't share the same worldview as they do.[/b][/quote] I try to play fair. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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compmage Member (Idle past 5182 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
quote: While theology is a package deal, if that package contains illegal or immoral chapters then it should be criticised and a lot worse. Note, I am not saying that the LDS church does anything immoral or illegal. I don't know enough about it, however just because the 'bad' parts for part of a package with many 'good' parts in no way makes the 'bad' parts acceptable. ------------------compmage
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah, I agree. I should have been more clear with my response. What I can't argue with is the idea that people do get to choose. The LDS is not some Leviathan that can force its will on people. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Delshad Inactive Member |
Since homosexualism 99% is based upon the surrounding environment and not dependent upon genetical structures, one should ask himself if it really is moral.
Sure, Ive heard heard about the argument that , if they dont hurt anyone , then its fine. Or, look at the bonobos, they do it! Firstly, it doesnt only effect you, it effects society. The children for example doesnt know what roles the two sexes are supposed to have and their judgement will be very confused when they grow up. Whatever "pleasure" the gay pair will have will never justify the act, a cleptoman may enjoy himself when he steals, but that wont justify the act, a pair stealing a childs judgement by their direct or indirect influence will never justify the act. And secondly, we arent bonobos, no matter how much some of us would want it. We can understand right from wrong, we know that children arent made that way, bonobos dont. Think about this, before we knew how to make fire, we ate raw meat, we perhaps ate plants we were allergic to or we perhaps died by lack of hygien. Now we know what is good for us but we dont consider the soap unnatural, or cocked food unnatural, or clothes unnatural or medicine unnatural. Well this reply wasn`t made to insult noone, but merely to bring the discussion at another perspective. Sincerely Delshad
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I do not believe that the evidence to back up this claim even exists.
quote: Yes, I feel great pain every time a gay couple kisses-- even though I can't see them, hear them, or smell them.
quote: What roles are the two sexes supposed to have? Human society is VERY flexible. Social roles are mutable as all get-out. Read some cultural anthropology. Culture creates those roles. Culture can change them. In other words, there is nothing except culture that makes homosexuality distasteful. More cultures than not-- outside of the Judeo-Christian traditions, of course-- incorporate the behavior. Secondly, the "confused children" argument has never been supported by any scientific study.
quote: ... implicit assumption that the act needs to be justified.
quote: You realize that ANY parental influence qualifies as "stealing a child's judgement"? Children are like little Borg--- they assimilate. It is how humans adapt and survive. You undercut the entire survival strategy.
quote: Of course we are not bonobos, but we are damn similar. Do you also object to the comparison of lions and tigers?
quote: How do you know what bonobos understand? And how do you know how we are made? If I could prove that we are made that way via genetic study, would you then accept it? Doubtful. Hence, you may want to rethink the argument.
quote: True enough. But it serves my purposes, not yours. This paragraph undercuts some of the arguments you made above. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Agreed.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Since being a Muslim 99% is based upon the surrounding environment and not dependent upon genetical structures, one should ask himself if it really is moral. Morality has NOTHING to do with if something is natural or not. Morality is made up by humans and always has been.
quote: Um, first of all, the idea that a child with two parents of the same gender will be confused about who are boys and who are girls is not established at all, nor will they necesarily be gay. Most gay children come from traditional hetero families, don't they, so this doesn't fit. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Second of all, what do gender roles and sexual preference have to do with each other?
quote: Yet another comparison of homosexuality with the crime of theft. How and why people equate them, I don't understand.
quote: Not sure what you mean here...
quote: LOL! Never said we should want to be Bonobos. They ARE our closest relatives and are very much like us, socially, physically, and genetically, so therefore they are useful subjects of study for comparison.
quote: Saying that "children aren't made that way" is a very bold statement considering that very little formal research on the genetic basis of homosexuality has been done. Tell me, what research are you relying on when you make this statement? "Right from wrong" is a human construct and is defined differently all around the world.
quote: We still eat raw meat. Carpaccio? Sushi?
quote: ...or homosexuality unnatural. You still haven't given any reason at all why homosexuality is either harmful or unnatural.
[/QUOTE]
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