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Author Topic:   Article: Religion and Science
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 230 (218478)
06-21-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by EZscience
06-21-2005 4:54 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
How much ignorance and missinformation propagated by religion can be 'tolerated' by science?
IMHO the point here is that it's not Religion propagating the misinformation, but willfully ignorant people. The idea that there is a GOD who wishes overpopulation and the suffering that will come with that is ludacrous. People who claim a religious right to promote such nonsense are just plain wrong. It is like the child saying babies are brought by the stork. Sooner or later someone needs to tell them, "I know you believe that but it's just plain wrong".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by EZscience, posted 06-21-2005 4:54 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by TimChase, posted 06-21-2005 9:11 PM jar has replied
 Message 35 by EZscience, posted 06-21-2005 10:03 PM jar has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 230 (218529)
06-21-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-21-2005 5:47 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
Sooner or later someone needs to tell them, "I know you believe that but it's just plain wrong".
I might try to be a tad bit more diplomatic, but this is the general idea.
Honestly, I think what may be required is a careful balance of the qualities of authenticity and diplomacy. Additionally, I would strongly recommend remembering that clergy are typically fairly well educated. This is why they are willing to do this:
And I would always recommend attempting to keep the lines of communication open even in the face of disagreement, and likewise, leaving those who you deal with the room to maneuver so that they can do the same. The best way to approach others is with mutual respect and a recognition of shared values.
Anyway, now that I think people are a little more familiar with the article, I would like to try and limit myself to one or two smaller posts each day for the next few days at least, and in this way, leave others the chance to express their views.
And I should probably introduce myself a bit, so here it goes. While I tend to put more trust in traditional religions, I myself am not traditionally religious. I was a philosophy major, and essentially a neo-Aristotelian. My focus in philosophy was in knowledge theory. My views concerning God are essentially quasi-Spinozist, like Einstein's, and I believe that the highest form of worship one can offer such a God is to exercise one's capacity for reason. However, I have no interest in converting anyone to my religious views, and I doubt that I would have much success if I tried. Besides, it isn't needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-21-2005 5:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-21-2005 9:25 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-21-2005 10:33 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 37 by lfen, posted 06-22-2005 12:39 AM TimChase has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 230 (218531)
06-21-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by TimChase
06-21-2005 9:11 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
I might try to be a tad bit more diplomatic, but this is the general idea.
IMHO, that's part of the problem. Being diplomatic has brought us to the current point. Literalists simply do not understand diplomacy, it is simply seem as agreement. The only thing that may work is every time one of the really stupid ideas, a 6000 year old earth or opposition to teaching the TOE comes up is to just say "Nope. That's a wrong idea and we won't teach it to any poor child."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by TimChase, posted 06-21-2005 9:11 PM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by TimChase, posted 06-22-2005 12:54 AM jar has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 34 of 230 (218533)
06-21-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by TimChase
06-21-2005 5:18 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
OK Tim. I read your OP twice. I agree with all the philosophical theory. More dialogue should, in theory, lead to more understanding and "religious scientists might serve as bidirectional ambassadors between the two communities". I agree that would be constructive, but it's not likely to happen given the level of mistrust of science that the religious LEADERS (yes, those whom you credit with intellect approaching that of scientists) intentionally progagate to shore up their own fragile constructs of reality. Isn't your proposition, in practice, pretty much a pipe dream in the face of some of the most glaring conflicts (in terms of recommended human behavior) between science and religion? I want details on how such a dialogue could conceivably resolve a specific a conflict such as the one I presented - overpopulation. I think both sides could talk for years on that one and never come to a consensus. I admire your optimism, but isn't it a little far-fetched?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by TimChase, posted 06-21-2005 5:18 PM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by TimChase, posted 06-22-2005 2:57 AM EZscience has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 35 of 230 (218534)
06-21-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-21-2005 5:47 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
jar writes:
it's not Religion propagating the misinformation, but willfully ignorant people.
That is a perfectly valid distinction Jar. I stand corrected. However, to all us atheists at least, I think it seems highly apparent that most of the 'willfully ignorant' in this regard have strongly theistic motivations for preserving their ignorance (which is fine) and foisting it on others (which is not).

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 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-21-2005 5:47 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 230 (218537)
06-21-2005 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by TimChase
06-21-2005 9:11 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
Honestly, I think what may be required is a careful balance of the qualities of authenticity and diplomacy. Additionally, I would strongly recommend remembering that clergy are typically fairly well educated. This is why they are willing to do this:
I looked over the list of signers on the A to E list and saw the usual collection of liberal churches -- many Episcopalian, Methodist, Unitarian, United Church of Christ, Presbyterian USA and Lutheran ELCA for instance.
It is NO triumph of diplomacy to get liberal churches on your list. They ALREADY agree with you. There are conservative branches of some of those denominations which do not appear to be represented on that list.
By the way, what do you think of my view, which I've brought up a few times at EvC in passing, that Creationist Christians should not battle with the public schools AT ALL, but simply quietly leave them, either for home schooling or to establish more Christian schools? Evolution is not going to go away and it is not good to be in this hostile battle about it. We simply need to go our separate ways.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-21-2005 10:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by TimChase, posted 06-21-2005 9:11 PM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by TimChase, posted 06-22-2005 8:51 AM Faith has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4706 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 37 of 230 (218563)
06-22-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by TimChase
06-21-2005 9:11 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
My views concerning God are essentially quasi-Spinozist, like Einstein's, and I believe that the highest form of worship one can offer such a God is to exercise one's capacity for reason. However, I have no interest in converting anyone to my religious views, and I doubt that I would have much success if I tried. Besides, it isn't needed.
I'm not interested in conversion attempts I am very interested in learning about your views. I think it's a good thing to have various viewpoints expressed here and discussed or debated. I think Spinoza or quasi Spinoza views and Eintstein's views are views we need to hear more about. So please don't be reticent. Share!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by TimChase, posted 06-21-2005 9:11 PM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
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TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 230 (218568)
06-22-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
06-21-2005 9:25 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
In the case of literalism with respect to the stories of creation, the garden, and the flood, I myself would have to draw the line. One should be firm and certain -- but one can remain polite.
I wouldn't expect to change the minds of any Fundamentalist clergy.
However, if clergy have an allegorical understanding of those stories, then I would strongly consider extending the hand of friendship -- unless there is a very good reason for doing otherwise. Clergy who have an allegorical understanding of those stories are about five centuries ahead of those who do not. And many have already taken steps to meet you at least half-way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-21-2005 9:25 PM jar has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 230 (218585)
06-22-2005 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by EZscience
06-21-2005 9:57 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
There are several points here.
First, I have some understanding of the mistrust which exists between the religious communities and the scientific communites. As far as I can tell, there is a fair amount of mistrust on both sides -- and I expected as much. But if we are serious about the complementarity of religion and science -- something which both the religious and scientific communities have been promoting to a lesser or greater extent, then we need the courage to live authentically by our words, we need to do so with integrity. Otherwise the claim by Fundamentalists that we simply bring God out whenever necessary and then stuff him back in a box as soon as possible will ring true. Science will continue to be perceived as anti-religion, and religion will continue to be perceived as anti-science. And both will be damaged in the process -- science by being exposed to the claims made by Fundamentalists, and religion by being made to appear increasingly irrelevant and backward in the modern age.
As for claiming that religious leaders have intellects approaching those of scientists, I certainly wouldn't make that claim. Frankly, I myself am in awe of empirical science and of the people who make it possible -- the dedication, the years of study, the hours spent staying up late trying to cram everything in that they needed to learn for that next exam. The hours spent in the lab, living without virtually any kind of social life. People in your profession have probably spent at least twice as many years in college as people who have entered the ministry -- and the last four years were probably far more difficult than the first four.
However, I myself try to approach everyone I meet as an equal -- whether that person happens to be the president of the company I work for, or simply the cashier at the corner store. But at the same time, I believe that this ability to approach clergy with mutual understanding and respect will be far easier for those forty percent of scientists who are religious and belong to the same denomination.
As for the "fragile constructs," I have one question: would you agree that religion (and I am not speaking of the Fundamentalism that you are so used to encountering, but of the religion held by the clergy who have already come to the defense of evolution -- whether as part of the project I have mentioned, or as part of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State) can and oftentimes does promote the intellectual courage to admit one's mistakes? Would you agree that some scientists are in fact religious -- and that somehow they still manage to be good scientists? Would you agree that there ethics is an asset to the scientific community? These "fragile constructs" are part of the bedrock of their characters. All I would ask of you is to grant respect to them for being good at what they do, and not penalize them for their religious beliefs or their participation in church.
Now with respect to the problem of overpopulation, if you are asking me how to convince the current pope that birthcontrol is needed in Africa, I am afraid that you have me there. However, the first point to keep in mind is the fact that the problems in the third world are interconnected. The growth of population in a country is a function of the poverty -- once the average annual income rises above 300 dollars (in 1964 dollars) population growth begins to decelerate. And the higher the average annual income the more the rate of population growth is lowered. This is what is refered to as the wealth effect.
Poverty in third world countries is a typically a function of several factors. I will list the three which I believe are most important. First, a heavily regulated economy with lack of transparency. Second, a burden of debt which is so great that additional debt has to be incurred simply to make payments on the interest for the debt which is already owed. And third, the existence of high tarrifs in First World countries which the Third World countries might otherwise be able to sell. Currently, we are seeing some debt-forgiveness, but the lowering of tarrifs has been postponed into several years in the future.
Now we also need to keep in mind the fact that the poverty in the Third World is responsible for the lack of basic sanitation, and moreover, with overpopulation continuing to be an ever-growing problem in an underdeveloped country, it is becoming increasingly necessary for people in the Third World to make further incursions into what would otherwise be prestine and very complex ecological systems. The incursions these ecological systems will expose people to organisms which have never been encountered before, which when combined with the lack of basic sanitation, the amplifiers of overcrowded cities, and jet travel will lead to epidemics which will threaten even the First World. As with the re-emergence of tuberculosis and with the increasing resistence of bacteria to antibiotics, the First World will pay a price for ignoring the conditions in the Third World. And the longer we ignore the Third World, the heavier the price is likely to be.
No, you probably can't convince the Catholic church to give up its opposition to birth control any time soon -- but I believe they would have an interest in seeing further debt-forgiveness and could even be made to care about high tarrifs. However, other churches may be more open to the idea of birth control.
Now will speaking in the basement of a church on Thursday night about problems in the Third World sway the opinions of an entire denomination? No, obviously not. But speaking in the basement as a member of that denomination who is also a scientist will give one greater visibility in that church -- which may grant one the kind of access which is needed to write short articles for church periodicals, and perhaps periodicals which have much wider circulation in that denomination. And the fact that the First World and the Third World are interdependent will serve to underscore the fact that the moral thing to do (helping the Third World with the problems it currently faces) is also the practical thing to do -- an unbeatable combination. If enough denominations are made aware of the problems which will soon face our world -- and to some degree are already facing our world, public opinion can be swayed and begin to affect both governmental and international policy.
But out of necessity, this will probably start small -- probably at the grassroots level. Some religious scientists visiting churches belonging to their own denominations, doing so because the feel free to do so without penalty, and because it is something they would enjoy doing.
Now I realize that the success of these more distant goals is much less probable than that of changing public perception regarding the relation of religion and science, perhaps only pie in the sky. But I do believe it is at least possible, and I do not see what we have to lose by trying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by EZscience, posted 06-21-2005 9:57 PM EZscience has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 230 (218636)
06-22-2005 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
06-21-2005 10:33 PM


Home Schooling
I don't know how others would feel about it, but this is actually something which I thought about suggesting myself. I believe in trying to avoid conflict when possible. And I most certainly do believe that you have the right to your religious beliefs and to bringing up your children as you see fit. Would I be happy with such a solution? Certainly not -- I believe children need to be prepared for the world which they will face, and this includes having a scientific understand of that world. But, if you were to use home schooling, this would not be my decision to make. It would lie, quite properly, in your hands.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 06-22-2005 08:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-21-2005 10:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 9:03 AM TimChase has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 230 (218637)
06-22-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by TimChase
06-22-2005 8:51 AM


Re: Home Schooling
My idea is that Christian children should be taught evolution in GREAT depth ALONG with creationist belief, and especially the ability to criticize it all with precision. I know you can't imagine how that could be so but I can. But the questions involved can't really be tackled properly until later ages. What is really needed is more Christian universities as that is where these questions would start getting the thorough treatment I'm thinking of. I think we need to reestablish universities on the model of the Harvards and Yales as they were originally conceived -- as training for the Bible-believing clergy, not the liberal clergy and not the atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by TimChase, posted 06-22-2005 8:51 AM TimChase has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 11:03 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 230 (218651)
06-22-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-22-2005 9:03 AM


Re: Home Schooling
In your proposed school.
If one of those students decides that the TOE is correct, that the earth is billions of years old and the universe tens of billions of years old, that there was never a Flood, how would they be graded?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 9:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 4:34 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 43 of 230 (218665)
06-22-2005 12:48 PM


Where would it end?
One problem with the homeschooling of children by Christians, or the setting up of Christian schools as a result of 'going their own way', is that society is allowing children to enter into a potentially psychologically damaging area. By standing back and allowing parents to suffocate children with what is known to be misinformation amd mythology, we are abandoning our duty as a society to look after all children.
How do Christians feel about a Satanist school for 5-14 year olds? Will every cult be allowed to teach their kids exactly what they want regardless of how silly it is?
Yes, parents are repsonsible for their own children, but everyone in that society has a responsibility to ensure that every child is not being abused either physically or psychologically.
All schools and homeschooled situations should always be monitored by the local education department to ensure that what is being taught is appropriate and beneficial to the child. Teaching that 4400 years ago God wiped out all life except that on a boat is 100% true is not appropriate to teach a child in lightof all of the contrary evidence.
Sure, teach the Flood story or creation in a religious studies class, that is where it belongs.But to try and teach anything in the Bible in a science class is a joke, and a sick one at that.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 4:38 PM Brian has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 44 of 230 (218725)
06-22-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
06-19-2005 2:06 PM


removed by edit... just saw PaulK accurately explained why science can't be the basis for morality. I should have read the whole thread first.
This message has been edited by holmes, 06-22-2005 04:39 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 230 (218729)
06-22-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
06-22-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Home Schooling
In your proposed school.
If one of those students decides that the TOE is correct, that the earth is billions of years old and the universe tens of billions of years old, that there was never a Flood, how would they be graded?
Unlike the victims of some evo teachers, they would be graded on their understanding of the material, not their conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 11:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 5:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
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