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Author | Topic: For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
"In your opinion" is not a sufficient rebuttal.
I have presented each of the first eight alleged prophecies in you OP. I have also presented the context in which they are found and specific reasons that each one is not prophecy but after the fact quotemining. You are requested to either support your assertion or to withdraw it. Once that is done we can look at the rest of the prophecies in your OP or alternatively, if there happens to be one in particular you believe can be supported, we will look at it. IMHO Christianity is a wonderful religion and has much to offer. It is diminished however by Pastors that simply don't know what they are talking about. Claims such as those laid out in the OP do nothing but diminish the worth and credibility of Christianity. It's time for Christians to quit dealing with nonsense Proofs and to begin living the live of Christ. The message is simple and requires no prophecy for support. Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: So when do we get that bit? I realise that you are giving us lesser mortals time for your exquisite prose and your cogent analysis of the problem to be fully dissected and deconstructed but I feel that we will be able to struggle on very shortly. This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-Aug-2005 10:48 AM
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Rahvin, did I not start out the OP saying there were 3 different ways you could look at the info? Look at the title! You can either take this as prophecy, coincidence, or made up. I never inferred with the title that this WAS absolute prophecy and there's noway you can look at it as anything but. If I say you can look at this 1 of 3 ways, and you pick way 2, what am I defending? The problem is that you are wrong. Jar has soundly proven that your "prophesies" were talking about something completely different, and had nothing to do with Jesus. If I say there are 3 differnt ways you can look at the color of the sky: 1) it's blue becuase the Earth is wrapped in blue celophane2) the air itself glows blue all the time 3) the specific chemical makeup of the air in the atmosphere filters out certain wavelenghts of light, and blue, being the shortest wavelength, gets through to us. This gives the appearance of a blue sky. You could say "Well, I picked number one, what am I defending? There are three ways to look at it, and this is my opinion!" But you would be flat wrong. Your opinion would be based on false facts. There is no celophane layer to the atmoshpere, and we can readily prove that. The "prophesies" you are using were not prophesies at all, and Jar has readily proven that.. You can't hide behind opinion. Opinions can be wrong. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Found this about whether or not prophicies that occured in the text of a story.
Some of the prophecies occur as part of the text of a story. So, a natural question would be, How do you know these are Messianic prophecies? Couldn’t someone have read these texts after Jesus came along and claimed they are Messianic prophecies? The reason we know these texts were intended to be Messianic prophecies is because they were recognized (and discussed) by the Jews before Jesus’ birth. One of the common debates was whether or not the Messiah was actually two people (or twins) since it seemed impossible to them that one person could accomplish both of the Messiah’s goals (Isaiah 61:1-3). We now know that Jesus accomplished one goal (preaching the good news and becoming the sacrifice that saves us) when He came to Earth, told everyone God’s new plan of salvation, and was crucified.He will fulfill the other goal (being our Savior and Lord, ruling at God’s right hand, and taking vengeance on the people who do not follow God) when He comes back to Earth (often called Jesus’ second coming). The Jews were discussing them as prophecies about the coming messiah before Jesus' day.
The reason God gave us the 31 prophecies that have been presented at this web site is to help us identify the Messiah. It is estimated that there were 250 million people alive in the world in A.D. 33 - the year Jesus died. This means that one male out of the 250 million people in A.D. 33 would have had to die that year by crucifixion, be of Jewish descent from King David, be born in Bethlehem, have been a teacher using parables, healed others and performed miracles. He would have had to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, been rejected by the leaders and then died four days later with no broken bones but with pierced feet, hands and side during absolute darkness. If you would like the most important prophecy about Jesus, it is in Daniel 9:25 Since you don't agree with the ones taken out of stories, here is one that states clearly when the messiah (Anointed One...caps) would come to earth; after Jerusalem is rebuilt.
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33.
link WWXD? What would Xenu do? "Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"--Ann Coulter
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
The Jews were discussing them as prophecies about the coming messiah before Jesus' day. The Jews of the time, as I understand it, also believed that the Messiah would be a strong military leader who would lead their people to freedom from Roman oppression. This was the general picture painted by those supposed prophesies you have mentioned. Obviously, if Jesus was the Messiah, then the Jews of the period were wrong. Just like you. You're using an appeal to authority. "The Jews though it was, so it MUST have been!" When your proposal stands on its own, it is soundly crushed by Jar's additional evidence. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33. And yet there is dispute as to the exact date of Jesus birth and death (assuming they happened). Nobody is sure exactly when it happened. Or do you have conclusive evidence to support that Jesus dies exactly in line with your supposed prophesy? Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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ConsequentAtheist Member (Idle past 6269 days) Posts: 392 Joined: |
Daniel says that 483 prophetic years (70 weeks = 70 x 7 years) will occur between the order to rebuild Jerusalem and the death of Messiah. These 483 prophetic years (360 days/year) correspond to 476.067 of our years (Julian years). Now we can count 476 years from 444 B.C. As we pass from B.C. to A.D. we gain a year since there is no 0 B.C. or A.D. 0. Eventually, we arrive at A.D. 33. Daniel says that after that date Jesus Christ dies and Jesus does die, at the end of the week on 14 Nissan A.D. 33. What a pathetic joke. Let's see what it says before being bastardized ...
Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'
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Tal Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Um...we live in 2005 AD. 2005 years ago Jesus was born. Our whole calander is based on him?
Couple of notes
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes: Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful worksa teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called Christus, which means The Messiah) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Also, Jesus had a lot of enemies that were still alive when the gospels were written. As likely as it is that those who were actively trying to eradicate Christianity could have simply written a rebuttal to the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, no such rebuttal writings exist. This seems to suggest that the gospel accounts were considered to be factual. The onus seems to be not on me to produce more documentation of his existance, but on you to prove he didn't. WWXD? What would Xenu do? "Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"--Ann Coulter
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Tal Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
What's your point? In all the versions I read, except yours, the Anoined One is capitalized.
What version are you using? I notice you didn't link to it. So what's the joke? The math still adds up (assuming you believe the calander year to be accurate). This message has been edited by Tal, 08-11-2005 02:13 PM WWXD? What would Xenu do? "Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"--Ann Coulter
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ConsequentAtheist Member (Idle past 6269 days) Posts: 392 Joined: |
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes: ...
Anyone who would reference TF as secular support for the historicity of the Bible is willfully ignorant. Go read something on Josephus before you further embarrass yourself.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5708 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Anyone who would reference TF as secular support for the historicity of the Bible is willfully ignorant. Go read something on Josephus before you further embarrass yourself. Pssst..that's why I listed 2 (there are more). But to give you the benefit of the doubt, your historical document proving that Jesus didn't exist is..? *EDIT* Can you provide me with more specifics on Josephus? Fraud? Innacurate? This message has been edited by Tal, 08-11-2005 02:27 PM WWXD? What would Xenu do? "Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"--Ann Coulter
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Weak...really really weak... asking someone to prove a negative... is this the best you have? Remember you have already promised to provide evidence that Jesus did the things you claimed? where is it? This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-Aug-2005 02:25 PM
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ConsequentAtheist Member (Idle past 6269 days) Posts: 392 Joined: |
quote:No, you quoted two because it was easy to plagiarize. You clearly haven't a clue what you're quoting or what it proves. Your pervasive ignorance is disgraceful. How, for example, does Tacitus prove anything other than his familiarity with Christian mythology? Again: read more, plagiarize less.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Um...we live in 2005 AD. 2005 years ago Jesus was born. Our whole calander is based on him? You DO realize that the Gregorian Calender, the one we use today, was not adopted until February 1582? quote: After 1582 yeears (give or take), I think it would be awfully hard to figure out the exact year of Jesus death. Especially without anything remotely like modern archeology.
Also, Jesus had a lot of enemies that were still alive when the gospels were written. As likely as it is that those who were actively trying to eradicate Christianity could have simply written a rebuttal to the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, no such rebuttal writings exist. This seems to suggest that the gospel accounts were considered to be factual. The onus seems to be not on me to produce more documentation of his existance, but on you to prove he didn't. If I write a story about counter-terrorism, and I use real-life people like Osama bin-Laden as enemies for my protagonist, does that make my book true? Does it make it even remotely based in reality? Of course not! Note also that the Catholic Chrurch actively destroyed and/or banned many early Christian writings for their own purposes. It is also conceivable that the Church would falsify or destroy any historical documents they needed in order to keep their position of power. After all, if Jesus didn't exist, the Catholic Church would have lost everything. What we need, Tal, is conclusive evidence that He DID. And the burden of proof for that is on YOU. You can't ask me to prove a negative - that's impossible. Also, I'd really like to see your comments about the quote I posted about Mithraism. You seem to have simply ignored it, but Mithraism has existed for a much longer period of time than Christianity. As I recall, some Mithra worship (including all of the very Christian parts) date back around than 800 BC! I'll post it again here just so you don't miss it.
quote: And here's the link for additional info. This appears to show that Christianity is a copy of a previous faith. What say you? Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
You say that the Jews considered them messanci prophecies. Can you ,from a non-messanic Jewish source, show where those passages were prophecies?
The Jewish sources use a different set of passages to define what the Messanic expectations are. Jesus did not meet them. Here is a list some
quote:
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