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Author Topic:   Second Law of Thermodynamics
Percy
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Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 36 of 102 (281367)
01-24-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by pianoprincess*
01-24-2006 9:04 PM


The second law of thermodynamics is like a toy wind-up car. You wind it up, adding energy to the car, and then it goes for while before running down. So you wind it up again and it goes some more.
In the same way, life on earth would quickly run down if not for the sun continually winding it up with new energy. If the sun were to go out, most life on earth would die.
The sun won't shine forever. It is radiating its energy off into space, of which we receive a small portion, and eventually it will run out of energy and shine no more, consistent with the physical laws of the universe which of course include the second law of thermodynamics.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by pianoprincess*, posted 01-24-2006 9:04 PM pianoprincess* has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 57 of 102 (282333)
01-29-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
01-29-2006 2:14 PM


Re: If no-one has said this before...
buzsaw writes:
Mark24 writes:
Stars, not necessarily planets.
AHAH!! So everything observed in the universe, with the exception of aspects of planet earth appears to be gaining entropy.
There's nothing special about earth. Mark only meant that planets receive energy from the suns they orbit. They also reradiate energy out into space. As Jazzns implied, they probably radiate some of their own energy off into space, too, which means they're gradually losing net energy and cooling.
An entropy budget for an entire planet isn't realistic (entropy is more than just a matter of gaining and losing energy), but it isn't what you want for this issue. What we're really interested in is the biosphere where life lives, not the whole planet. Life absorbs energy from the sun and locks this energy into chemical bonds through photosynthesis for use in growing and reproducing. Growing plants are definitely experiencing decreasing entropy.
We can't imagine what life might be like on other planets, but if it exists then it does so through the same process of absorbing energy from a nearby star to fuel life's processes.
Is the earth experiencing a net gain or loss of entropy in the biosphere? Who knows? That's an incredibly complex question. Probably it's not too far from equilibrium, though our burning of fossil fuels might have some influence.
The important point is that life is just chemistry. Extremely complicated organic chemistry, but still just chemistry. Reproductive errors are the source of much variation, and they, too, are just chemistry. And living organisms and plants and animals living their lives and succeeding to reproduce or not is just more chemistry. Evolution is just chemistry, and chemistry does not violate 2LOT.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2006 2:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 102 (283447)
02-02-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Evopeach writes:
COnclusios of a logical mind:
1) Without an intellligence based, designed energy transducing
process converting random solar energy into a usuable electrical form
no process can produce a negentropic effect.
This would be incorrect. First, transforming energy into electrical form is not necessary to do work. Second, many natural processes produce local reductions in entropy. For example, when the sun's energy drives a chemical reaction that results in energy being stored in chemical bonds, a local reduction in entropy occurs.
2) With such a process can product negentropy effects but those
effects will always be less in amount than the entropy produced by
the transducing and energy delivery process. It has nothing to do
with the etropy produced by the the sun.
3) The suns and any stars processes are very large entropy producers
which is why thermonuclear processes are irreversible, highly
inefficient and push the universe toward an inevitable equiblibrium
heat death followed by absolute zero.
Your terminology is very non-standard and probably open to misinterpretation. Entropy is not a product of a process but a quality or attribute of a system. Just as you would never say that a growing plant is producing size, you wouldn't say that an active process is producing entropy. You would instead say that growing plants increase in size and that active processes increase in entropy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Evopeach, posted 02-02-2006 11:45 AM Evopeach has not replied

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