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Author Topic:   Second Law of Thermodynamics
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 47 of 102 (282140)
01-28-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


If no-one has said this before...
Pianoprincess,
I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Thanks.
OK, I'll have a crack at getting this back on topic...
Firstly, as Crashfrog correctly states, evolution doesn't say anything about the universe evolving upwards, nor does the second law of thermodynamics (hereafter known as 2LOT) say it is backsliding. So your opening post is based upon false premises to begin with.
The second law of thermodynamics states that in a closed system, entropy will increase to a maximal level. A closed system is one in which energy can neither leave nor enter. A bit like a thermos flask that stays hot forever (or cold, for that matter). Entropy is the unavailability of energy in that system for work use. For example, say we have some sugar, oxygen & a match in our magic thermos flask. The potential energy available for work is at a relative high, whilst entropy is correspondingly low. Assume now that the match is struck & the sugar begins to burn. This results in the sugar breaking down into carbon dioxide & water. Note that the system has exactly the same energy as before (a closed system cannot receive or let it go), it is now distributed amongst the molecules differently in a much more stable way. The carbon dioxide & water aren't going to react with each other (ie. do work), so we can see that despite the energy in our system being absolutely the same, the energy available for work has decreased. And therefore the unavailability of that energy has increased, or put another way, the entropy of the system has increased.
There is now no real way that we can make sugar again out of the carbon dioxide & water. This is what creationists mean by complexity can only decrease. If we had an open system & applied energy in the correct way, we could make sugar out of water, oxygen, & carbon dioxide.
The problem with the creationist interpretation of the 2LOT is that they dishonestly ignore the fact that it was formulated to apply to a closed system. The earth, however, is demonstrably an open system where energy is contantly being gained & lost. In this system, sugar is indeed "remade", plants do it all the time when they photosynthesise. According to creationists who say "complexity can only decrease", photosynthesis is an abberation. If complexity increases were not allowed by the 2LOT in an open system, then we shouldn't be able to make anything more complex than the component parts, but we can, 2LOT doesn't forbid it. An embryo shouldn't be able to increase in complexity from a single cell to a fully adult organism with specialised cells, tissues, organs, & organ systems, but it does & they do. And consequently there is no reason why random mutation & natural selection cannot maintain & "improve". We demonstrate that this happens in the laboratory, again it isn't forbidden in an open system. Nor are any of the above forbidden in a closed system that hasn't yet reached maximum entropy, because there is still energy available for work.
The creationist misinformation is based upon, not understanding what the 2LOT is in the first place, inappropriate conflation of terms like entropy & complexity (2LOT says absolutely NOTHING about complexity), evolving upwards, backsliding, in order to come to a totally vacuous conclusion. It sounds technical & scientific, & the creationist masters of misinformation know that the vast majority of their target audience will be completely unable to critique their claims, but it's just plain wrong.
The creationist 2LOT fallacy has been around for decades & is still being trotted out. Why? Bad science it may be, but creationists aren't about science, they are about propaganda, getting "bums on seats", & scientific mumbo-jumbo combined with the easily swayed scientifically illiterate means they are onto a winner.
Hope that helps.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pianoprincess*, posted 01-23-2006 11:01 PM pianoprincess* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2006 1:44 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 49 by Brad McFall, posted 01-28-2006 2:13 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2006 10:51 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 53 of 102 (282301)
01-29-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
01-29-2006 10:51 AM


Re: If no-one has said this before...
Hi Buz,
Hi Mark. I believe every star, galexy, planet and other heavenly bodies are open systems. Is that correct?
Yup.
Isn't it a general observation that the workable energy in most, if not all of these is on the decline?
Stars, not necessarily planets.
Isn't it also being observed that workable energies of earth and sun are also on the decline for the long term?
Yup. The only possible true closed system is the universe in its entirety, & entropy on average is increasing. At some point the last star will go out. But don't worry, this isn't likely to affect the stock markrt any time soon .
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2006 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2006 2:14 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 56 of 102 (282330)
01-29-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
01-29-2006 2:14 PM


Re: If no-one has said this before...
Buzz,
AHAH!! So everything observed in the universe, with the exception of aspects of planet earth appears to be gaining entropy.
Not at all. I said the universe as a whole was gaining entropy. Anything that receives energy loses entropy (potentially), the general trend is towards greater entropy, however.
Interesting, it is, that it happens to be complex things applicable to this tiny speck in the whole wide universe where enough work seems to be applied to effect a negative entropy. We IDists think we understand the reason this is,( ) but of course, the science journals will have none of that!
A star shits out energy. Anything that gets in the way absorbs it. Why is this such a revelation to you? Apparently we need IDists to sound surprised at such a trivial concept?
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 01-29-2006 02:54 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2006 2:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 85 of 102 (283672)
02-03-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Evopeach
02-03-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Evopeach,
It is now a proven, demonstrated and accepted fact that the laws of thermodynamics can be formulated from a maxiumum entropy perspective, a mimimum free energy perspective and a maximum informational entropy perspective which includes configuration,order and complexity.
Please demonstrate this to be the case. Every single formulation of 2LOT I have seen singularly fails to mention information. 2LOT deals with the correlation of entropy & energy & has nothing to do with information.
Life as currently understood requires the organized interactions of specific amino acids arranged alternately in elongated chains of substantial length called polymers. These in turn are physically arranged via optical purity in form into the double helix of DNA so that unprecedented storage efficiency of infomation (the Genetic Code) can be effected in a microscopic space. Then using a vsariety of complex protein and enzymic structures the DNA can be replcated and in turn serve as the progenitor of messages which when read and interepreted result in the manufare of proteins and enzymes which in a closed loop fashion contribute to the DNA replication and to the servicing of a a host of cellular operations.
And how, exactly, does the statistical increase in entropy in a closed system preclude the natural formation of the above?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Evopeach, posted 02-03-2006 12:56 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Evopeach, posted 02-03-2006 4:16 PM mark24 has not replied

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