Second Law of Thermodynamics

One must restate again:1) The SLOT applies to every physical, chemical and mass/energy conversion process, reaction or excahnge in teh universe without exception. There are no local negentropy events anywhere which are not locally financed or driven by companion directly coupled energy/heat/work flows which create entropy increases in their operation far exceeding the negentropy they finance. Thats why no one can demonstrate a perpetual motion machine.2) There are no mysterious, metaphysical, non-local action at a distance entropy messaging phenomomena to support experimentally or theoretically the idea that local negentropy in biological evolution and operation is financed by large entropy producing evvents "somewhere else in the universe".. even the sun.3) There are no negentropy events in the universe which make use of unrectified, unconverted raw radiant or in general electromagnetic energy absent a process to convert the energy into a usuable form. It is this transmission, conversion and rectification process which in obedience to SLOT results in huge entropy production to finance the local negentropy effects, LOCALLY.4) In the beginning there were no metabolic, photosynthetic or other processes available to convert raw solar energy into a form suitable for overcoming the free energy deficit associated with the most simplistic formation of amino acids from monomers, polymers from monomeres, proteins,enzymes, DNA etc. The spontaneous formation of the chemical processes of photosynthesis and matabolism is so phantasmagorically impossible ... even evos don't believe that yet that is required to make evolution happen.5) That which never gets started can hardly be assumed to continue.6) If an open system and the suns or stars operation were sufficient the entire world would be free of SLOT and we would abound with perpetual motion machines since nearly all processes are open to the suns energy.
MY FRIG.. An analogy for the evo crowd.My icebox will keep my beer cold because it is plugged into a wall
socket delivering electrical energy. It is by definition an open
system since the power crosses an arbitrary boundary (you do
understand closed open and isolated and flowthrough are all arbitrary
constructs for problem solving don't you)called the icebox exterior
shell or packaging.Thus by supplying rectified, converted energy in a useable form to
the ice box system I can push heat from a cool reservoir to a warm
one. If this were to occur without any energy being supplied across
the boundary it would be a clear violation of the second law and
entropy would decrease on a net basis. THUS IT HAS NOT AND NEVER WILL
OCCUR.But the energy delivered comes at a very high entropy price namely
coal burning, water heating, trubines turning, power transmission and
all very inefficiently with large entropy increases.Thus the net entropy change of any real process chemical, physical or
biologic will always in consideration of the system and its
surroundings be very positive.Now I take my icebox unplug it from the socket , sit it out in my
yard in the hot hot summer sun. Does my beer get cooler or hotter?
The system is still an OPEN one, the suns energy is abundantly
available, the device is the same as before yet my beer gets hot, the
box gets hot and I get hot.Whats wrong... this senario satisifes every evolutionary constraint
and assumption... a heat source available to an open system with
everything it needs to operate in a negentropy fashion... yet it
fails miserably and completely.I rush to the store and buy a solar panel driven electricity system.
I set up a large array and plug my icebox into the generator output.
Behold my beer begins to cool down again. I have indeed harnessed the
suns energy to do negentropic work at the expense of overall entropy
increases theough the rectification process. The entropy balance is
maintained without regard for the thermonuclear process in the sun
period. The entropy increases due to inefficiencies, friction work,
etc. electrical losses, etc. are absolutely sufficient to insure a
net entropy increase.COnclusios of a logical mind:1) Without an intellligence based, designed energy transducing
process converting random solar energy into a usuable electrical form
no process can produce a negentropic effect.2) With such a process can product negentropy effects but those
effects will always be less in amount than the entropy produced by
the transducing and energy delivery process. It has nothing to do
with the etropy produced by the the sun.3) The suns and any stars processes are very large entropy producers
which is why thermonuclear processes are irreversible, highly
inefficient and push the universe toward an inevitable equiblibrium
heat death followed by absolute zero.QED Delete redundant portion. --AdminThis message has been edited by Admin, 02-02-2006 01:59 PM

Stick to the subject. Heat energy may make or break chemical bonds depending on the free energy differences between reactants and products. Unfortunately for you every reaction of formation beyond diamers to monomers requires energy otherwise it doesn't go.Dozens of reactions means nothing... the ones that enable life are the only ones that matter to this discussion.You might also notice that amino acids in life processes that make up the proteins and enzymes that life is composed of and operates with and upon are mirror image forms that are entropically identical and there is no favored gradient. Yet only left hand forms make the life process amino acids and only right are in enzymes. There is absolutely so way of achieving this separation randomly or by any known natural means outside of intelligence guiding the process of separation. Then of course there is the ordering and sequencing of the amino acids to form the chains of amino acids that then fold into proteins to perform sprcific tasks dependent on the precision of the folding. No random process can account for the ordering and sequencing operations in the primal state.I think this group is the crystal clear reason why we need NO Child Left Behind... brainwashed, unthinking sychophants of fairy-tale science.

Crashfrog,The stupidity of talking about any crystal formation such as ice or snowflakes, etc. that has no complexity whatever, no information content, no codes but only mindless repeating chemical and physical bonds as a result of spontaneous free energy considerations when heat is removed from water by temperature gradients evidences again the complete lack of scientific understanding of the subject matter... typical Evo craptalk. The entropy change between the two states of 1) water surrounded by cold air and 2)ice surrounded by slightly warmer air is a net plus. If you dont think so there is no hope for your intellect.

Thermal vents don't eat anything.. What an idiot.Organisms there reply on a form of metabolism to get the energy they need. That to is a complex, non-spontaneous process which would never evolve from non-life.I was of course to use both metabolism and photosynthesis in my prrevious work.

First we were tallking about processes that make and sustain life which are both physical, chemical and informational.. all of which have distinctly thermodynamic considerations. It is now a proven, demonstrated and accepted fact that the laws of thermodynamics can be formulated from a maxiumum entropy perspective, a mimimum free energy perspective and a maximum informational entropy perspective which includes configuration,order and complexity.Life as currently understood requires the organized interactions of specific amino acids arranged alternately in elongated chains of substantial length called polymers. These in turn are physically arranged via optical purity in form into the double helix of DNA so that unprecedented storage efficiency of infomation (the Genetic Code) can be effected in a microscopic space. Then using a vsariety of complex protein and enzymic structures the DNA can be replcated and in turn serve as the progenitor of messages which when read and interepreted result in the manufare of proteins and enzymes which in a closed loop fashion contribute to the DNA replication and to the servicing of a a host of cellular operations.Melting ice with solar heat simply releases the physical lattice bonds and diminishes the order or form water is taking as a function of temperature. The entropy difference between ice at equilibrium and water at equilibrium with its surroundings having passed through a set of quasi-equilibrium states is calculable.However there is no complexity whatsoever just change in order. Water carries no informational code like DNA.Ice has been used quite well as a refrigerant for food in the past providing a local temperature gradient for heat energy flows.Water of course has and is used as a working medium for superheated steam and the production of electricity.What's your point?

From Wikopedia.This postulate is necessary because it allows one to conclude that for a system at equilibrium, the thermodynamic state (macrostate) which could result from the largest number of microstates is also the most probable macrostate of the system.This allows for the definition of the information function (in the context of information theory):When all rhos are equal, I is minimal, which reflects the fact that we have minimal information about the system. When our information is maximal, i.e. one rho is equal to one and the rest to zero (we know what state the system is in), the function is maximal.This "information function" is the same as the reduced entropic function in thermodynamics.See KUO on Thermodynamics and his entire chapter deriving and equating the second law and entropy relationships in both formulations.In fact these relationships are the subject of grad level classes in several leading universities.Thaxtons paper also clarifies this equivalence.

Lets review how free energy and entropy govern all chemical reactione in life processes and they being fundamental thermodynamic concepts.The chemical reactions that cause life to proceed starting with the original formation of polymers of the 20 amino acids used in life will not ever, never and absolutely will not proceed on their own spontaneously. They will proceed chemically if energy of the correct form is supplied and if the environment is p

First you fail to note that the amino acids produced were not those required for proteins, enzynes, nucleic acids and DNA. Second the amino acids were as always and forever racemic mixtures of levo and dextro forms which are absolutely useless for making the polypeptides that make up the molecules of life. There was no hint of how this separation or creation of all lefthanded or righthanded versions of the twenty acids could be naturally effected. There is nothing new here other than a different set of carefully crafted reaction conditions crreated by scientists. Let alone how the products could be used for life prcesses. The molecules formed are racemic mixtures of both forma and absolutely useless for the problem at hand.

I never said they were the same. The Braxton paper makes the differences clear and the analogies clear. It also accounts for the entropic work necessary to order and sequence the optically pure acids into chains suitable for carrying the genetic code or instuections/information necessary for life as we observe it and theoretically contenance it.Chemistry unaided by codes and interpretive processes cannever explain the operation of a human cell.Codes and interpretive systems never arise randomly.

Two examples would be the ETSI peo

Since the naturalistic separation of racemic mixtures of amion acids from basic monommers has been the most problimatical issue in the theory anyone who could propose a realistic primal environment and demonstrate such would win the Nobel prixe. It has not been done.There is no evidence that the first replicator could possible be as simple as described. That is another fairy tale.