|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why is Faith a Virtue? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
very well. but your opinions do not change the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
My characterizations were focused on the politics of the United States and the Bush neo conservatives who are thus far refusing to sign the Kyoto accords. They are with the help of the political pulpits of such as Pat Robertson exploiting people's faith for political ends and they are getting wealthier as a result.
At this time I am sketchng out a theory of faith that sees life in all its forms taking risks against the chance of the environment to annihilate it or fail to support it. I'm thinking that the function of organisms could be described as faith, or that life lives in faith. By the time we encounter civilization and writing we also encounter what Maurice Berman calls the Sacred Authority Complex which in his writings he often abbreviates as the SAC. Here religion and the priest class are used to encourage, enforce, or control a large population of people into a functional social conformity but civilization has its price which can be very high. With the developement of the SAC faith comes into service of the SAC and the rulers. Faith is now in the authority of the state and its high priests and is used to further obediance. Such was clearly the function of Judaism. Early Christianity was different, but note it wasn't until Constantine adopted Christianity as an instrument of the state that it came to dominate Europe and it did this by political control and oppression of all it's competitors. The original Christianity looked to the end of the state, the world actually. That didn't happen. It has survived as a typical Sacred Authority Complex. lfen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
very well. but your opinions do not change the truth. Do tell. But it is quite possible that my judgment is rather good and has in fact identified the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
And if that weren't enough there are many of them supporting the same story. There are lots of stories recounted in the books chosen for the Bible. Which same story are you referring to? And who killed Goliath? lfen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Early Christianity was different, but note it wasn't until Constantine adopted Christianity as an instrument of the state that it came to dominate Europe and it did this by political control and oppression of all it's competitors. . This is such a bunch of nonsense. There were no doubt disadvantages to Constantine's making Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire, especially later on when the church had completely abandoned its Biblical foundation and become a political power, but that was a gradual development and eventually the Reformation overcame most of its influence. And most of the tyranny exerted by the Roman church in its worst periods was against other, usually more genuine, Christians, not some other competing religion. But as far as spreading the gospel goes in the early centuries, all Constantine's Christianization of Rome did was put an end to the persecutions of the Christians, and gave them enough breathing space to go preach it. And what on earth do you think Europe was at that time anyway? A bunch of primitive heathen tribes in constant war with one another basically, with various tribal gods of their own but no organized culture let alone religion. Constantine's actual influence in Europe was limited to some skirmish or other with the Goths unless I am seriously misremembering, and the Goths in fact were the longest holdouts of all the European tribes in accepting Christianity, finally getting Christianized around the year 1000. I can look all this up if my memory is failing me here. The farther north, as a general rule, the longer the holdouts. But Ireland was Christianized as early as the 2nd century already, and was sending out its own evangelists that early. In other words what competitors and what control? The gospel was spread MOSTLY by evangelists in all those first thousand years. In a case or two kings who were convinced of the gospel made all their subjects Christian, but that wasn't the power of the Roman empire, that was the local kings. And there was no Roman empire in Europe after Constantine anyway. Europe just went back to being the dark continent it had always been, until gradually the church's influence spread and monasteries became centers of learning and very very slowly the whole miserable bunch of warring tribes got more or less civilized. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: it is quite possible that my judgment is rather good and has in fact identified the truth. quote: Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
David killed Goliath. You keep asking that and I assume you have some revisionist notion that he didn't but I haven't been following the topic. What, you want to put your revisionist notion against my historical belief? For what purpose? The same story is the one story that tracks from Genesis through Revelation. The revelation of God and His plan of redemption of the human race.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Well, you are correct that what we know as modern Europe was largely barbarian at that time.
I should have said the Roman Empire. Italy is a part of Europe. Later the influence spread north as civilization moved into those areas and the Catholic Church initially played a very important political role in the European civilization that grew out of the Roman empire in Italy and it's now Christian state religion. lfen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Well, what about the passage in 2 Sam. 21:19?
Brettler is giving careful reading to the Bible. Yes he contradicts the traditional glosses on the text by his exact reading. You can call that revisionist sure, and a good thing that someone is paying attention to the details. That the Bible is without contradiction is as much a folk tale as the story of the giant killing that was inserted into the narrative in Samuel by as a yet unknown hand. It's not history it's folk legend perhaps of the same sort as the story about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. A fiction that was composed to recommend always telling the truth in an age that didn't seem to have appreciation of irony. lfen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, you are correct that what we know as modern Europe was largely barbarian at that time. I should have said the Roman Empire. So in the Roman Empire Christianity was forced on the people and drowned out the old pagan relgions? Well, since the pagan religions through the power of the Caesars had been killing Christians for the previous 300 years, why not? In any case what force? After Constantine Christianity was allowed to grow and paganism got shoved aside. But pagans weren't thrown to the lions or made into living lamps to light Caesar's gardens as the Christians had been.
Italy is a part of Europe. Later the influence spread north as civilization moved into those areas and the Catholic Church initially played a very important political role in the European civilization that grew out of the Roman empire in Italy and it's now Christian state religion. After the fall of Rome there wasn't much civilization left in Italy TO spread through Europe because of the waves of barbarian invasions. What spread civilization was ONLY the church, which grew as it gathered believers, and in fact my impression is that civilization pretty much had to be invented from scratch in Europe, but grew out of the influence of the gospel more than any other influence. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Lfen writes: Brettler is giving careful reading to the Bible. Yes he contradicts the traditional glosses on the text by his exact reading. You can call that revisionist sure, and a good thing that someone is paying attention to the details. Oh brother. The Bible has been gone over for 2000 years with a fine tooth comb by its followers, and every jot and tittle argued out thoroughly, but only some modern revisionist debunker "is paying attention to the details."
quote: Matthew Henry writes, of the battles with the giants in general which is what this passage is about:
quote: Lfen writes: That the Bible is without contradiction is as much a folk tale as the story of the giant killing that was inserted into the narrative in Samuel by as a yet unknown hand. It's not history it's folk legend perhaps of the same sort as the story about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. A fiction that was composed to recommend always telling the truth in an age that didn't seem to have appreciation of irony. The contradictions people find in the Bible are usually just the product of their unfamiliarity with Hebrew and the customs of the time. Family members are often identified by the name of one, and sons may really be grandsons or even great great great grandsons. You have to understand the culture and the context, which Christian theologians have studied in great detail. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Or, you are so desperate for confirmation of your desires for God to be real that you give a lot of weight to the "hits" you encounter in the bible and downplay or ignore the "misses". Subjective emotion is hardly a "cross check" of facts, Ian. It's confirmation bias at work here.
quote: I never said they were less intelligent. Quite a lot less sophisticated in certain areas, of course, but not less smart. What you seem to be forgetting is that the Bible was written in the Jewish scholarly style, which makes liberal use of symbolism, metaphor, and parable. It is a teaching tool, not a history or science text.
quote: Well, right. All you have is blind belief.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So any bunch of writings that I find from many different authors who all agree with each otehr as much as the Bible does you would consider self-authenticated?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You cannot claim the reliability and respectability of academic historical scholarship and also be completely lax and sloppy in your methodology, which is exactly what you are doing. quote: Apparently you are not interested in meeting any sort of worthwhile standard. Perhaps then you will stop claiming that the Bible is historically accurate if you refuse to subject the Bible to normal, common sense historical verification.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You mean, "hearsay"? LOL!
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024