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Author | Topic: Why is Faith a Virtue? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Coincidently I found this recent book just arrived in my library's new book section.
Excerpt: 'David and Solomon' by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman Introduction: David, Solomon, and the Western Tradition Thanks to archaeology, we now -- for the first time -- can dissect the main elements of the biblical story to see when and how each one emerged. The results of our search may be surprising, for the archaeological discoveries of recent decades have clearly shown how far from the glamorous scriptural portraits the actual world of David and Solomon was. Yet the legend was not merely a romantic fiction of imaginary personalities and events. It evolved over centuries from a core of authentic memories into a complex and timeless literary creation. In its unforgettable images and dramatic scenes -- the battle against Goliath, the rise of David from outlaw to king, the splendor of Solomon's court -- the legend of David and Solomon expresses a universal message of national independence and transcendent religious values that people all over the world have come to regard as their own. Yet as we will see, its origins are traceable in the archaeology and history of a single small Iron Age kingdom as it grew from a village society into a complex state. (this is an excerpt of an excerpt that can be found at:Two Biblical Kings: 'David and Solomon' : NPR I've just started to dip into it. Very interesting arguments with as much archeology as they can pack into it. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is secondhand eyewitness testimony, which is all any of the written testimony is.
You mean, "hearsay"? LOL!
Is that what you call the newspaper reports of events you didn't witness yourself? TV reports? All histories? Sure, "hearsay" of that sort. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Chief Infidel Inactive Member |
Is that what you call the newspaper reports of events you didn't witness yourself? TV reports? All histories?
We have very few mass suicides or suicide bombings based on faith in the inerrancy of newspaper reports.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Is that what you call the newspaper reports of events you didn't witness yourself? TV reports? All histories? Sure, "hearsay" of that sort. And there are mistakes made by reporters everyday. The news is an approximation. If they had camera's on the scene it's can be better data than if not, but footage can be edited to make people say things they didn't say for example. Why would God choose such an unreliable way of communicating such important information to humanity? really, I just can't buy this of a being who is said to be capable of the laws of gravity and the creation of the universe. Such a being would have something that just functioned like gravity. Instead in the Bible we find only recognizable human fallibilities and psychology. And what if the evidence contradicts the hearsay? Even the eyewitness testimony. I recall reading about someone who died of headshot wounds to the head. His girlfriend was reported as saying it was suicide. There was some sort of mob involvement. He had three gunshot wounds to the head. Was it self inflicted? As my memory is so bad this story must remain an apocryphal example. However back to Finkelstein and Silberman's latest book. There are no ruins of the magnitude described in the Bible at the level of David and Solomon in Jerusalem. It was a small village then. So the eye witness testimony has grown with the telling. Just like the stories about King Arthur, or Davey Crockett. Eyewitness testimony tends to get retold and as it is handed down the generations it "improves" in the telling and incorporates blended material from other sources. There is no mystery about the ways this happen. It's well documented in many times and places. lfen
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docpotato Member (Idle past 5077 days) Posts: 334 From: Portland, OR Joined: |
If you didn't see the credit to Bram Stoker on the cover of his book Dracula you might make an awful mistake...
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We have very few mass suicides or suicide bombings based on faith in the inerrancy of newspaper reports. The ONLY point was if you trust any part of any "hearsay" or secondhand report on any subject whatever, and we all do all the time, there is nothing intrinsically untrustworthy about the Bible simply because it is a written witness report. Of course I'd claim it's a lot more trustworthy because of its multiple mutually enhancing reports over 1500 years. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh good grief. The analogy was only intended to demonstrate that we all have to depend on secondhand or "hearsay" reports all the time, not to claim that they're all inerrant.
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Chief Infidel Inactive Member |
Oh good grief. The analogy was only intended to demonstrate that we all have to depend on secondhand or "hearsay" reports all the time, not to claim that they're all inerrant.
Oh good grief. Then stop that analogy. If you want to compare the decision of whether or not to bring an umbrella to work to the decision on whether or not to crash a jet into a building then go ahead. You can compare the decision on which team one the football game to the decision to commit suicide for the spaceship behind the comet. Or you can stop dodging the question and answer it head on. Also, you need to take note of the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning as well as subjective v. objective facts. Why is faith a virtue?
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5093 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
Adenosine Tri Phosphate the energy currency of the human body.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Okay, but now that I've introduced Finkelstein and Silberman's scholarship regarding history and archeology I think that you can't claim the Bible is sufficient evidence and that none else exists.
Finkelstein and Silberman are pointing to evidence that contradicts the hearsay specifically in regards to the claimed size and grandeur of Jerusalem, the temple, and the palace of David and Solomon. Do you agree that the bibical accounts are exaggerated then? lfen
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Chief Infidel Inactive Member |
I'd prefer not to get caught up with the evidence. And I understand it's hard. But let's just talk about faith.
For those who believe, please, take one second and imagine that what you believe is false. Imagine that you are an atheist. Now go back to your normal self. What seperates you from the atheist is faith. We all have the same evidence. You believers just have faith in that evidence. Why is faith a virtue? Why is faith a virtue when it can lead to things like Jonestown? Edited by Chief Infidel, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The problem is that you can't just talk about "faith" as if all versions of faith in anything whatever were equivalent. Faith in Satan, for instance, doesn't have any virtue whatever.
I don't see anything more to say on this subject. I thought we all pretty much answered it, you saw no virtue in anything we said, and that's the end of it.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I've just started to dip into it. Very interesting arguments with as much archeology as they can pack into it. on david and solomon? i'm surprised they have any! now i'm curious.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5020 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Chief writes: For those who believe, please, take one second and imagine that what you believe is false. At this request many believers here have been known either to run off or to change the subject.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
For those who believe, please, take one second and imagine that what you believe is false. Should this injunction apply just to belief in God, or to other types of belief? Suppose we believe in a certain moral code. Should we "take one second and imagine that what we believe is false"? Suppose one of the doctrines of our code is the idea that racism is evil. Should we take one second and imagine that what we believe is false?
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