Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Theological Defense of "Gap Theory"
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 111 of 144 (343237)
08-25-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
12-12-2005 1:23 AM


Nitpick coming up:
he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims
No 'cherubims.' The word would be cherubim (Hebrew plural) or cherubs (English plural).

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 12-12-2005 1:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 1:25 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 112 of 144 (343247)
08-25-2006 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Garrett
02-17-2006 9:07 AM


Re: Is the Gap Theory really important?
What you are really discussing here is a Jewish Midrash--a story told in the 'gaps' of Biblical narratives.
Midrash - Wikipedia
The Midrashim offer hundreds of interpretations and speculations about biblical narratives. From these sources come the tales of Lillith and mythical creatures being on on or off the ride of Noah's ark.
It's interesting that evangelical Christians, who normally know little about Midrashic literature and in any case feel no obligation to believe it literally, would take such a different approach to this single idea. The subject is the age of the earth and suddenly they want to quote the Talmud.
The source of this eagerness to turn a Midrash into a 'Gap Hypthothesis' is plain, of course. The idea offers a loophole that can be used to harmonize a young-earth narrative with an old-earth reality. It permits assumption of the vast amounts of time that natural history requires. The loophole can be expanded to offer time for a solar system and moons to form, crustal plates to shift, mountains to rise, and strata and fossils to accumulate.
This desire to incorporate reality into faith is admirable. Many literalists do not bother to make the effort. But instead of going to these lengths to try to shoehorn milions of years between two lines of text, why not just toss the literalism? Why not let discoveries take their course and let the chips fall where they may?
No one really takes all of Genesis literally. Do snakes talk? No. Is the sky made of hammered metal? No. Does knowledge of good and evil grow on trees? No. Do snakes eat dust? No.
These are metaphors that do everything but take out a full-page ad in The New York Times announcing I'M A METAPHOR!
So let them be metaphors. And let natural history be natural history.
Contrivances are not necessary. Just let things be.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Garrett, posted 02-17-2006 9:07 AM Garrett has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 1:37 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 115 of 144 (343356)
08-25-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by arachnophilia
08-25-2006 1:25 PM


Re: Bible translations/resources
About the appearance of 'cherubims' for cherubim:
yes, yes, i'm well aware of that, but the kjv is simply the most accessible for copying and pasting, and that's what it says.
Gotcha. I didn't realize that mistake appeared in the KJV.
Take a look at the Oremus Bible Browser: oremus Bible Browser
NRSV, ecumenical canon, KJV option preserved.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 1:25 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 116 of 144 (343370)
08-25-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by arachnophilia
08-25-2006 1:37 PM


Re: creation stories as art
arachnophilia writes:
you have to remember that the wrote and read these texts were not modern. they weren't stupid, but the social context was very different. they believed in god in certain (often different) ways, and the idea of a talking snake is quite a religious one. in many of the surrounding religions, various kinds of spirits (usually evil) manifested themselves as serpents. a hammered metal sky (like the creation of everything out of water) is bit of a theme in mesopotamian mythology. it's quite in line with the alchemy of the time.
Points well made and well taken. (The serpent more often represented chaos in ancient times rather than evil, I believe, but that's a small point here.)
It's also well to remember that the distinction between 'literal' and 'metaphorical' meanings is itself the product of a later age.
You say the understandings of god varied. No doubt. The understandings of the serpent, the trees, and other elements of the story also would have varied. Even in ancient times, some minds understood their stories and images more literally, others less so. You can see these temperamental differences in the writers of the Tanakh and you can see it in other ancient religions (as when Socrates discusses the literal vs metaphorical reality of Athens's gods).
You also mention alchemists. Alchemists, too, varied in how materially or spiritually--that is, how literally or metaphorically--they understood the nature of their project.
genesis is first and foremost a book of origins. it explains how things came to be --
Agreed.
genesis was the science of the day.
Not literally. But the statement could work as metaphor.
Science did not exist. Genesis was the origin story of the day, sure. It was the received wisdom of the day, sure. It was the literature of the day, sure. The ancients might have understood it as a folk tale of the day, too. Fine. But no one thought of Genesis as 'science' as we know the term because there was no such thing. The kind of knowledge the ancients looked for in Genesis was a far cry from that sought by a modern literalist looking for a vapor canopy.
Yes, the naive interpretation of the text would be literal, as it always is. This would hold especially true in a culture that has only one creation story to work with anyway. But people could observe then as well as now that snakes don't talk. People knew as well then as now that a single male human being alone in the world will feel lonely, and that it hardly takes a lot of trial and error to figure this out.
How literally a given image might be taken would still vary from person to person depending on age, temperament and experience. But because the distinction between literal and poetic was fluid anyway, and because no competing stories existed within the culture, these differences in personal interpretation could remain nuances, not huge rifts. The necessity of distinguishing between metaphorical and literal is a modern one.
while we can read metaphorical things into it, the basic pshat reading is very, very literal, and was always intended to be such.
The naive, out-of-the box interpretation would be literal, sure. But I don't see how anyone can say for a fact that this was always the only reading intended, as you seem to imply. The idea of a basic peshat reading as opposed to other kinds of readings is also a later invention. It comes from an age when distinguishing among different types of interpretation mattered far more.
Literature is art. In a pre-scientific age it was not science. But it it was still art.
The person or persons who crafted the story and shaped it as they passed it on made conscious decisions about what to include, what to leave out, what to modify and what to keep. At the beginning, clearly, they knew they were taking elements of Babylonian stories--the paradise, the fourfold river, the tree of life, the serpent--and adapting them to their own purpose. This purpose also meant there would be elements they would discard--polytheistic elements, mainly--in crafting a different picture. They made adjustments and shaped a story in a way that told others something important about the way the saw their deity operating in the universe.
The audience accepted the story as real. Some, especially those less familiar with the creative process, might take it absolutely literally. Others might be more savvy and look for meanings beyond the images. Regardless, how literally or poetically the story was taken did not matter so much. The reality mattered.
It is a scientific age that equates literal with real, and metaphor with imaginary. Biblical literalists, heairs to this pattern of thought, display it.
people just need to come to terms with the fact that, read literally, the bible is often wrong.
Agreed.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Posted a draft.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Accidental early posting of a draft in progress.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 1:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 3:40 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 129 of 144 (344187)
08-28-2006 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by arachnophilia
08-25-2006 3:40 PM


Re: creation stories as art
arachno:
chaos and evil are often associated.
Of course. And well argued. Great post all around.
i am hardly naive in this area.
Aiya! The notion that you might be never crossed my mind.
I was interested in getting the creative element of it into the picture. Personally, I think everyone who takes interpretation seriously gains from doing extensive creative writing, both fiction and nonfiction. Writing down a narrative of any kind involves choices. It's beneficial for avid readers of any literature to experience that process.
I do understand better now your sense of a 'literal' reading. Very helpful. Thanks.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by arachnophilia, posted 08-25-2006 3:40 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 08-28-2006 4:12 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 133 of 144 (344206)
08-28-2006 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Jor-el
08-27-2006 11:49 AM


Re: Genesis as Art & Theory
Jor-el:
In my time as a christian I've come across almost every forseeble and many times unforseeble explanation and theory for almost all parts of the bible. From Genesis to Revelation, I've heard everything that can possibly be used to undermine belief in the Bible, if not in the existence of God.
Now I'm not saying that this is what I've read in your posts Archer Opterix and Arachnophilia but it cuts pretty close to the dividing line.
I've had a few conversations with Arachnophilia, enough to know that he believes in God and that he is a christian and we've disagreed in a few points especially when metaphors come into play. As for your beliefs I wouldn't presume to guess.
'Your beliefs'--you mean mine? If so, I'm sorry I overlooked your comment until now.
I have no interest in undermining anyone's faith. But it saddens me to learn your faith is so easily threatened.
I was discussing Genesis as art. It is art. That is just a fact.
What does the word 'Bible' mean? It means book.
What's a book? Literature. What's literature? Art.
What does the word 'Scripture' mean? It means writing.
What's writing? Literature. What's literature? Art.
That's the truth. Look it up yourself.
Then afterwards, be careful. Defending your idea of 'God's word' against the truth puts you in a strange predicament.
It raises the question of whether the deity would approve.
There is just one thing that really surprises me and that is that this is a Theological defense of the Gap Theory. In other words, according to the bible can we prove that one possible interpretation of the Genisis account "The Gap Theoery" is plausible. It is not do discuss whether Genesis is a metaphor or not. We are taking for granted that the bible is "God's word" for all intents and purposes, and that these events are fact as expounded by that very word.
Then let me help.
The proposed gap falls between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2, right?
Have you considered the structure of the original Hebrew?
Verse 1 is actually a dependent clause. This means that in the original text the first sentence extends into verse 2. It's not two sentences as it appears in the King James.
That's why you see recent translations render the opening of Genesis more like this:
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, ”Let there be light’; and there was light.
Genesis 1.1-3 NRSV
oremus Bible Browser : genesis 1
I hope this is helpful.
Incidentally, if you've never heard Haydn's musical setting of this text in his oratorio The Creation, check it out. Unforgettable.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Jor-el, posted 08-27-2006 11:49 AM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jor-el, posted 08-28-2006 4:21 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 139 by Jor-el, posted 08-28-2006 4:22 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 134 of 144 (344208)
08-28-2006 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by arachnophilia
08-28-2006 4:42 AM


Re: structure and purpose of genesis
arachno:
the point of eve is that she is very literally the same flesh as adam. adam says, upon meeting her, "finally, flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone." he's not rejoicing in meeting someone he could rule over, like the animals that weren't good enough. he was rejoicing in meeting someone who was equal.
Ancient Mesopotamians, I'm told, believed the soul to be located in the bone marrow.
If that's correct, Adam's statement 'bone of my bone' would imply 'soul of my soul.'

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by arachnophilia, posted 08-28-2006 4:42 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 08-28-2006 2:53 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 136 of 144 (344341)
08-28-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by arachnophilia
08-28-2006 2:53 PM


Re: structure and purpose of genesis
arachnophilia:
in hebrew, souls are literally associated with "wind" or breath. when god breathes into adam's nostrils, it not only makes him alive, but gives him a soul.
Yes. Nephesh--closely connected with the idea of Ruach and Neschamah, three different takes on the word breath/wind/spirit. Centuries after Genesis is written, kabbalists will say the human soul consists of three parts and use these three words to describe them.
the idea of a shared soul does come into play, though, as part of the explanation of marriage. i'm just not sure if bones have anything to do with it. but that is an interesting idea.
I hope I didn't just repeat an urban legend. I do have that on hearsay, as I indicated. A rabbi--an erudite lady and usually a good source for these things--told me that some years ago. She didn't mean to suggest the association of life with bone marrow was one Judaism had carried forward. More that this is a place where earlier Mesopotamian beliefs leave a trace in the text. She did suggest another passage where traces of this belief may appear: the Torah's rationale for its prohibition on ingesting of animal blood 'for the life of the creature is in the blood.'
I am not qualified to say. Just some Bible skuttlebutt for that Worldwide Office Cooler, the Internet.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Spelling.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 08-28-2006 2:53 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 140 of 144 (344400)
08-28-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jor-el
08-28-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Genesis as Art & Theory
Jor-el:
I would agree with you if I was actually in a literature class sudying the bible under those guidelines.
I'm not talking about guidelines. I'm talking about reality.
Truth starts with knowing what you have in your hands. It's literature.
But, since in this case the object of said study is the basis we must use in a theological discussion to prove a specific point, it stands to reason that the argument is not about the merit or demerit of the bible as a work of literature hence Art,
I am not discussing the 'merits or demerits.' I am acknowledging reality: a book is literature. Literature is art.
Reality has to be factored into the equation no matter what you want to prove. Reality is an essential part of proving anything.
but the use of the bible as a way to prove a hypothesis
Then I'm not sure you respect the Bible as much as you claim.
You told me earlier you thought it was 'God's word.' Now you admit you see it as something to use in order to prove something.
If you believe the book is from God, why wouldn't you let it talk to you on its own terms--poetry, metaphor, history, surrealism--as the author wants? Why would you dictate to the author that everything you read has to work a science lab report?
Just for nitpickings' sake why did you put a comma after earth in your bible verse?
No nitpick. That comma was what I wanted to show you.
It pretty much defeats your argument doesn't it?
Not mine. I have no idea what argument I'm making that you could mean.
It could have implications for your hypothesis, though.
Since commas and verse numbers don't exist in the copies of the so-called originals we have.
But dependent clauses do. Written English uses commas to render them. In the Hebrew the first sentence extends through verse 2, where the subject, 'earth', appears.
Here it is again:
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
I just thought you'd be interested.
There is alot to be said for looking at multiple translations which I do, as well as the original hebrew and chaldee texts.
Well, of course. I've examined translations and made every effort to understand the Hebrew. But I confess you've got me beat on the Chaldee.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : No reason given.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Fixed two typos.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jor-el, posted 08-28-2006 4:21 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jor-el, posted 08-29-2006 4:19 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 143 of 144 (344978)
08-30-2006 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jor-el
08-29-2006 4:19 PM


Re: Genesis as Art & Theory
Jor-el:
When we clear this little hurdle then we can start talking on whether the Gap Theory Hypothesis is without merit.
I just shared some information I thought you might find helpful. That's all.
Who's reality, yours or mine?
I said the Bible is a book. A book is literature. Literature is art.
I only called that 'reality' because I thought these things were obvious.
I am sorry I was mistaken.
That's a prtetty vague affirmation considering that it is neither here nor there. What point are you trying to make? Be clear because I tend not to see the indirect quips as well as others. Don't beat around the bush.
I apologize for my inability to communicate more clearly. It was not my desire to be vague.
Maybe you shouldn't consider the Bible so much a work of art or Literature but as the manual that teaches you to know God and His will for your life.
The Bible is a manual, you say?
A manual is a book. A book is literature. Literature is art.
A manual is just one kind of book. Many kinds of books exist.
So how do you know what kind of book you are looking at?
You open the book. You read. You let the author's language guide you.
- If you see instructions for putting together a bike, you're probably looking at a bike manual.
- If you see a list of names in order of generation, you're probably looking at a genealogy.
- If you see talking animals and place names like 'Cliffs of Insanity' and 'Pit of Despair', you're probably looking at a fable.
- If you see flowerly language praising eyes, breasts and belly buttons, you're probably looking at a love poem.
Libraries have many kinds of books. For this reason, 'What kind of book am I looking at?' is always a good question to ask.
- If you try to put together a bike by reading a love poem, you will have problems with the bike.
- If try to get your spouse in the mood by singing words from a bike manual, you will have problems with your spouse.
Maybe you know a good library where every book is by the same author. Maybe the author is God. 'What kind of book am I looking at?' is still a good question to ask.
God can do anything. God can write any kind of book God wants. You want to enjoy each book to the fullest.
It would be a shame to use a love poem to put together a bike. The bike won't work, and you'd miss all the beauty of the love poem.
That's all I am trying to say.
I apologize if this is still vague. I wish you the best--truly--as you explore Genesis further.
It's a great book.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jor-el, posted 08-29-2006 4:19 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jor-el, posted 08-30-2006 1:36 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024