The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall

We have been over that quite a bit in this thread. No one argues that those quotes are in Pauls writings, just that they are not supportable by Biblical scripture. Sorry, Paul did say that but he is certainly not refering to the story in Genesis 3. Paul may well have been refering to some other story or scripture, maybe First Adam & Eve or the Book of Enoch, but he could not get that out of the Genesis Garden of Eden story.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Your interpretation of the Genesis story sets up a philosophical framework that makes you conclude that Paul is not talking about the Garden story - despite the plain reading of the text.

Not at all. In fact, a plain reading of the text in Genesis shows that if Paul is refering to the Garden of Eden story found there, he is simply making stuff up. He was well known for playing loose with most everything. He simply ignored those laws (circumcision) that stood in the way of his marketing, adopted and misrepresented local customs (the temple of an Unknown God) to fit with his marketing. This is just another such case.There is no Fall in Genesis.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There is no Fall? I assume that we're all talking about the samething, the transition from a perfect world in which there is no sin,to a fallen world in which every human being is born with sin. Ifwe're talking about that Fall, then I don't know what Bible you'rereading from.In Genesis 2 God gives a command to Adam and Eve. In Genesis 3 both disobey the command If I'm correct disobeying a command from God is called sinning.Unless we need to go over the definition of sin?Also in Chapter 3 of Genesis, God punishes both Adam and Eve fortheir sin by sending them out of the garden, and cursing them. Nottoo long after Cain commits murder by killing Abel. So, before Adamate the fruit, there was no sin, but afterwards, there is clearlysin. I think we can conclude that Adam brought sin into the world.That action resulted in the Fall, where humans were no longer born perfect.I think I've made my point.

Their committing the sin WAS the Fall, the fall from grace with God. That's what the Fall was. The Fall is also the consequences of the sin in our inheritance of the sin nature, but although there are some distinctions I think it's fair to say they are synonymous. Rev DG said it was new to him that there's any connection at all.

You gotta come up to speed. All of the things you mention have been covered in this thread.see: Message 14;
Message 17;
Message 19;
Message 20;
Message 23;
Message 28 and quite a few others where it is addressed.But yes, there is NO Fall in the Genesis story of the Garden of Eden.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yeah, and there's no God in the Bible either, and no Israel, and no Church, in fact, there is no Bible...Jar, since your Bible is obviously blank, and you fill in the blank with whatever you want, why do you feel it necessary to drag the Scriptures into your Bible at all?Edited by mjfloresta, : No reason given.

Perhaps a more reasonable answer would be to carefully quote where the Bible actually does say what Jar says it doesn't?Then we could all read it and decide for ourselves.The answer you give in your post makes it look like you don't have one.

At least three people in this thread have laid out the Scriptures that clearly say what Jar says they don't. It's all in this thread to be read.

Call: "What is the Law?"Response: "No blood!"Primum non nocere--First, do no harm.Everything else is dogma.

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Like some of us have to keep repeating scientific evidence it is necessary to reiterate what you may have posted before.What is done in these cases may be a copy or a [ msg ] reference to the posts that make it clear that Jar is wrong.Simply stating it has been done leaves it up to lazy readers to find it. That leaves the impression in their mind that it isn't actually there.

If you look in Message 28 and Message 29 and Message 39 you will find some of the direct quotes from the Genesis story.If we look at Genesis 2 we see that God mentions death to Adam. If death does not already exist then that is a threat with no meaning. But God also had created a Tree of Life which comes up later.Death existed in the world before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.In addition God's own assesment of what happened was not that Adam and Eve had Fallen, but that after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge they had become more like him.Genesis 3: The stories in Genesis were never meant to be taken literally, they are explanations of the world folk lived in. They explain why humans farm instead of foraging, why child birth for humans seems more difficult and painful than for other animals, why snakes have no legs and why we fear snakes. They explain why we seem to have a moral code unlike the animals and why we do not live forever.There is simply no Fall to be found in reading Genesis. You can read Genesis 2 here and Genesis 3 here.Edited by jar, : o

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

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assume that we're all talking about the same thing, the transition from a perfect world in which there is no sin, to a fallen world in which every human being is born with sin.

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Unfortunately the Adam and Eve story doesn't support that Adam and Eve didn't miss the mark before they ate of the fruit.The theme of the story is about the sin that got them kicked out of the Garden. The story also doesn't support that every human being is born with sin. Sin is not a thing, it is an action. Each person is born with the potential to do right and to do wrong and since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they also had the potential to do right or to do wrong.So there really is no support for whether they did or didn't sin before eating the fruit, but there is support for the statement that they already had the potential within them. All humans have that potential. I don't see that eating the fruit changed that.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Thank you for making sense!It makes sense that the Edenic sin would be 'original' in the sense most things in Genesis are original: the beginning of a particular phenomenon in the world.It is going far beyond anything the Bible says to postulate an unbroken line of genetically inherited guilt. That's a later--and exceedingly dubious--development in sectarian theology.Well said..Edited by Archer Opterix, : Brevity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

mjfloresta, when are we going to get that new thread on Biblical evidence for the Fall?Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.