The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall

see this is why i think genesis is just a just-so story and just answers why we have the things we do and its a mythical story to answer questions
why would the pain be increased in childbirth for eve? she hasn't had children yet! what would be the point of this? if someone told me they would increase the pain when i stab myself with a pointed stick why would i think thats terrible when i never stabbed myself with a stick yet? why would adam care? he never had to do this before right? its just an answer to people with the ability to know how tough working can be, its worthless to adam yes by paul, taken out of context, i'm thinking 'death' is murder and he means cain killing abel rather than 'death' as in people dying only if you want the whole, "i'll kill you if you eat this fruit" thing meaningless, since how would adam and eve know what death was before the fall? the logic should be, eather paul was using the word death to mean something to do with the spirit or meaning murder or man is just by nature violent and from day one man was violenti think saying man was imortal or something is doing some fine logic bending but why should that be the answer?

yes and paul means what to me? i could care less about what paul says, and even so, this is his opinion on where sin came from, like i said he's making the point that from day one humans had death, ie: immortality was not part of it, i was thinking about death equaling murder but paul is just stating that he believes death is just part of what makes us human
i find it amusing that you use paul to argue your stance, its in the bible, so that must mean everything ever put in the bible is right then, being that this is just paul talking i don't have to agree with him at all do i? faith this is wrong by far, you believe this so it must be true, this doesn't make it true. the authors of genesis and generations of jews don't believe this. only after christ do you start seeing this nonsense oh yes because a person who has never felt the toil of the earth would know how much worse he would have it after god curses him to make toiling the earth worse. faith, does that make sense to you? does making something harder that someone never did before mean anything at all? the hypocracy is getting deep here faith, PAUL says this, genesis does not PAUL is giving his opinon and beliefs about how we have sin and half the stuff you believe isn't even from paul its from luther and calvin
nor were you there, so what difference does it make, neather was the author, or paul or the transcribers
faith, why would god make a tree of good and evil if adam had insight into those things already? why would go punish him if the tree was meaningless in the first place?
i'm reading it as it should be read, by itself! i'm not reading paul to answer the things in genesis anymore than i would read genesis to read paul!
gensis reads like a story to explain things about life, why man has to toil why woman die or have pain, just like greek myths and egyptian ones
i'm reading whats there, you on the other hand have to use another text it seems to suport your beliefs and one thats someones opotion at that, i mean if you don't read paul or anything after the gospels does the fall work? the fall only shows up after the gospels yes and so what? i don't really find anything paul says important beyond what people believed, but without paul theres not much to christianity is there? well just the parts about loving each other and god and jesus trying to show us the right way to live and save us from sin i'm not really moved by the argument of some 18th century music. i would rather go with the authors of genesis than some christian father who wants to premote this idea of original sin. i think its ironic that you don't consider what scientists say is fact, relevent, but you consider the 'sages of christian history' right even though both groups are humans. this is a bit mind-boggling really considering.i don't trust the so-called 'sages' for the very much the same reasons you don't trust science, you don't feel they are telling the truth, no matter the evidence , but i don't trust the priests because they aren't telling the truth via the evidence,being that propaganda is a good tool, like telling people that historians agreed with the fathers about things, when found later to be untrue.being exulted by people doesn't make you a better person, being a better person makes you a better person faith

did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote or are you just picking a nit?
my comment was in the context of faith using paul to read genesis, which i don't care what some guy 1000 years later has to say about what he feels genesis is saying why would you read someone who knows next to nothing about what the other wrote? i don't believe the bible, you can see it even in this thread i don't, i said genesis is a myth as much as anything written during that time

Because this is all a story to explain why we have these things, as i asked faith, who basicly claims they some how have an insite track with god, but it makes the trees useless since they somehow knew these things they never did before.
why does adam get cursed to toil MORE? he never did this before
why does eve get cursed to feel more pain in child birth? she hadn't had children yet, why would this be terrible to someone who never did these things?
why would they be scared of death, if everything was immortal? they would have no context to work with to fear itthis is a retroactive story to explain pain suffering death and other things humans cope with, while having the good ol' days before themthis is a myth it is not history

I'm starting to think that christian fundies equate "The Fall" with original sin, rather than realizing that the fall has little to do with original sin.
i read that islam and judeaism do have a fall but its nothing like the christian one, they believe they have failed god and adam caused a disjunction, and part of our job is to fix this. nothing remotely close to the christian "fall" no genetic sin, or perfection before it happened
no born with sin or anything like that, lot better since it allows free will and doesn't condemm those who just live thier lives

umm no they are not they are not related at all, do the muslams believe it? do the jews?
no they do not neather have that concept and point it out to me where genesis says all people are born with the stain of adams sin on them?you can't because its not part of genesis its from some guy nearly a thousand or so years later that even he wouldn't think its true eatherwe sin, this is the concept of the jews it is not brought on by some ancster, but from what we do as a part of being humani guess you don't trust the authors of genesis then?
you only trust what some folks in a meeting thought mattered?

let me explain, i think it was late when i wrote that not sure though, what i mean is only christians have original sin, the authors do not show a concept of this at all, unless you can show it without imposing a thousand years of evolving christian belief on it, very hard to do i would think but possiblewhere in genesis does it speak of adam's decendents being born with adams "transgression" on them?
or evidence of immortality before the fall or animals eating plants, genesis doesn't show this at all and i have read it at least hmm 50-60 times now? yes and how do we know paul isn't talking out of his bum?
i don't take pauls word over genesises word at all
he didn't live in the time of the authors when they wrote it anymore than we did, so why is what he says anything but what he thinks of it?i guess they let anyone into the bible these days..

ok where did i say this? i said they are not synonymous if you read genesis without reading paul and luther and calvin and any nutjob theologan who claims original sin is real into itits not new to me at all i've it read a lot of things on it and i've read lots of things written by the jewish people - who it was written to
who do not believe the christian view at all, for good reason

yes because if something isn't perfect it makes the important stuff meaningless!
i mean all that spiritual truth and how you should follow god and love people and faith in god is meaningless if some guys story in kings or judges isn't exact!what kind of faith is that? thats the weakest faith i've ever heard of

no "The Fall" has nothing to do with original sin, nor is the claim that the world was perfect even biblical. do i have to keep repeating that god said the unverse was "good" in his eyes?
we say "good job" when someone does a pleasing job, we don't say perfect jobevidence in genesis or anywhere before paul that man was born into sin? that adam's sin condemms him? i am using the kjv and niv, you must be using the fundie bible then? no, the reason god kicked them out if you read it, is because he was afraid of them eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal and as gods they got kicked out from gods fear of them living forever!
read the text!
they transgressed if anything from gods fear of them moving beyond his control too fast, he didn't want them to have free will until he said soI think I've made my point.
the only point you made was you don't read the bible you read some guys book or absorb someones sermon but don't really read the bible

no i was saying that when people use the term "the fall" they are saying original sin instead of saying "the fall" caused original sin, the fall is an event its not a condition, but people use the term to mean original sin when they say the fall
you use it both ways, when according to how the authors were using this story, it was explaining why god is not with us anymore on the earth.namely adam disobeyed god, so it left a disjunction that people try to fix by following the laws written down by moses
fundies on the other hand say somehow adams sin causes everyone to be born in a doom nature by default even though the only evidence is paul and some church fathers adding on to his workwhere in genesis does god say "Adam your decendents will forever be cursed with being born in sin"?
its not part of the fall at least from genesis this sums it nicely i thinkEdited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

yes that clears it right up, it sounds like you make it up as you need to, faith
wiki: it sounds like they are different things, that relate to each other, rather than being interchangible like you are claiming they are paul is not canonical, even if you claim this what makes him right?
oh thats right he's in the bible, as i said if something happens to be in the bible do you believe it? so did samson kill 3 thousand people with an ass jaw then?
its his interpretation of genesis as he thought of it, reading it in light of his writings is not a very good argument. uhuh, it doesn't does it? if you have to interpret genesis with another text to bulster your faith there is something wrong answer me this then? what good is it to post scripture out of context and meaning?
scripture can be used both ways

its a just-so story, both are used to give reasons for events, they are plot devices, just like the snake is a foil
the tree of life is used as an object for why we arn't in eden and have to be out trying to survive
and the other is for why people need to work tward being a good jew, to return to innocience that god wanted

who knows, its a story to explain things, why punish anyone or do anything?
its not that good of a story other than being a good example of what the hebrews thoughtmy thought is the tree didn't do anything unless you had the knowledge of the gods first

whats your evidence? an argument from silence? come on faith..
thats an assumption
why does the text have god worrying that they would become immortal in 3:23 if they were able to eat from it freely? why set an angel over it? why not just kill them and start over?
where the heck does it talk about satan?