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Author | Topic: "Evidence and Faith" | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
I assume that you mean this claim:
1. Sudden creation of the universe, energy and life from nothing.
So I would characterise the claim under discussion as asserting that the universe (including the Earth) was directly created by an intelligent entity no more than 10,000 years ago. In that case there is no real objective evidence for it, and so much evidence against it that it is not a scientiifcally tenable view. The same goes for Creation "Science"'s Flood Geology or the notion of separate creation.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So I would characterise the claim under discussion as asserting that the universe (including the Earth) was directly created by an intelligent entity no more than 10,000 years ago. I don't think it has to be 10,000 years ago. Isn't Genesis unspecific enough to allow for any amount of time to have passed? Aren't there 2 kinds of creationists, young earth, and old earth? Does it really matter if we are doing science, when the earth was created? Only that it was created? I personally don't think it was created such a short time ago.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Rat, the problem is that we can observe the various stages in the process of creating planets going on today.
We can see new stars being born. We can see accretion disks. We are beginning to really understand the process of planetary creation. But you are asking if there can be proof of supernatural intervention. The answer to that is "NO!" Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: That's a contentious issue. My view is that a literal reading of Genesis severely limits the time, as the YECs say.
quote: Creation "Science" is strictly Young Earth.
quote: If you're asking for objective evidence I don't really think you could find any outside of science.
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ikabod Member (Idle past 4523 days) Posts: 365 From: UK Joined: |
I am looking for evidence of the world being created, NOT FORMED. the problem then is HOW the creation occured , as unless there is a stamp saying "product of the creator " or a video of it happening , we are limited to looking for the tell tales of what ever processes where involed in the creation event . example ..(assuming creation of the whole universe not just earth) .. creation is a on / off switch .. with a zero time interval .. now if creation is a zero time event there is no current method of detecting the event .. there is no before and after to compare . however if it is a step by step creation , over a period of time , there will be changes occuring with time , and rthese may leave traces , ie gravity / lightwaves / energy et al , you cant look for evidence unless you know something about the event . example . . finding a bullet in a dead body is not evidence that the person was killed by gunfire , you have to know how the body works , understand the damage the bullet caused and determine if that resulted in death . ... the bullet could be there because they swallowed a live bullet as for a bet , and the bullet is in the digestive tract ..and is not related to the death .... define what creation is and how it occurs .. then you can look for evidence
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Yes, I am well aware of that jar. I am an ameture astronomer, and try to stay up on what is going on out there.
Those planets are not being created, they are being formed.Let's stick to those definitions for purposes of this discussion. Plus, you are limiting it to just the earth, I said the world, which means everything in it.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Your post brings up a point I will be making to my Pastor.
That is, when it comes to God, we have faith to believe in Him. When it comes to going to the doctor, we have science. I am sure most people would not approve of the methods that creation scientists use to have them operate on them.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rat writes: Aren't there 2 kinds of creationists, young earth, and old earth? Does it really matter if we are doing science, when the earth was created? Only that it was created? I personally don't think it was created such a short time ago. IF our basic belief is that God is the Creator, we can ask ourselves where He fits into the picture. Here are my current beliefs:
I would ask: Which idea was the original premise? The human idea or Gods I Am that I Am idea? To boil it down:Are we Gods idea? (His creation?) or is God our idea? I believe the former. Edited by Phat, : add by edit
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you are aware of that much of "HowGodDidit" why must you continue to place limits on GOD and turn Her into some back yard conjurer?
Why limit creation to "the world?" Why do you always belittle GOD? Science is but the search for the answers to "HowGodDidit™" Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: But you are asking if there can be proof of supernatural intervention. The answer to that is "NO!" Words are human inventions. One could argue that God created everything and that we are simply recreators. (Meaning that there is nothing new under the Sun) In other words, when a human invents something, the idea already existed. There is no such thing as an original thought. Perhaps the only original thought could be thought of by (The Origin) That speaks of a Creator. Again. But the definition of ideas can only be expressed through words.
Clusty writes:
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure, and there's a whole field of study called Cosmology devoted to learning how planets are created. If the supernatural was involved is not something that physical evidence can determine. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Maybe because I think I am the know-it-all instead of Him!
Why do you always belittle GOD?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Words are human inventions. One could argue that God created everything and that we are simply recreators. (Meaning that there is nothing new under the Sun) In other words, when a human invents something, the idea already existed. There is no such thing as an original thought. Perhaps the only original thought could be thought of by (The Origin) That speaks of a Creator. Again. Sorry but a totally inane statement of the "Anything conceivable school of theology". It is totally irrelevant whether anything new is possible. If it is new to you, it is new. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Of course, by your own admission, you "hate" studies, so I don't know why you would have a problem with a doctor who ignores them.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Nator writes: Sure, and there's a whole field of study called Cosmology devoted to learning how planets are created. Evidence is human conclusions based on human wisdom. Thats all it ever can be.
Clusty writes:
I can attest that God is real in my heart. I can bear witness that I am growing stronger in being able to articulate my faith even as I test it against other faiths. My testimony speaks for myself. It does not speak for God.(although people may see my testimony as a tool to reaffirm their own beliefs one way or another.)
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