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Author
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Topic: God caused or uncaused?
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 207 of 297 (418079)
08-26-2007 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 205 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:28 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
sidelined Is there a logical reason why God exists? There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him. So we either choose to trust Him, or not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 205 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:28 AM | | sidelined has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 209 of 297 (418082)
08-26-2007 10:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 206 by mark24
08-26-2007 10:28 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24: My great-grandmother lived until she was 93, she smoked cigarettes like a trooper all her life. She lived well beyond the average life expectancy. Smoking is therefore good for you. There you have & internal & external test cohere, it is valid logic, & it is also wrong. Your point? That doesn't tell you how long she would have lived without smoking...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 206 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:28 AM | | mark24 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 217 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:51 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 210 of 297 (418083)
08-26-2007 10:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 208 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:33 AM
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Ringo: You still can't use logic to connect what is observable with what is unobservable. There is no possibility of coherence there.  I'm talking about logic itself Ringo... Can you not see HIm?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 208 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:33 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 213 of 297 (418086)
08-26-2007 10:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 211 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:35 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
sidlined: Then Logic is greater than, not the same as, God. No, it's just who God is. Good and complete. Love, harmony, order... coherence. Can logic be greater than logic? Is the Father greater than the Son? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:35 AM | | sidelined has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 215 of 297 (418089)
08-26-2007 10:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 212 by jar
08-26-2007 10:37 AM
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Re: Who cares?
jar: Who cares? In this issue it is irrelevant and unimportant. That remains to be seen. We're having a conversation. This is not a dictatorship. Please answer the question:
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 212 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:37 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 220 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 216 of 297 (418090)
08-26-2007 10:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:41 AM
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Ringo: Nobody can see Him. If people think they see evidence of Him in the physical world, that evidence can fit into their coherent philosophy package. But there can never be a coherent connection to Him. Nobody can see logic? Then could Einstien see that E=MC2 (what is the code for that little square 2)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:54 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 219 of 297 (418094)
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 217 by mark24
08-26-2007 10:51 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24: That's neither here nor there, that she lived well beyond the average life expectancy is an observation, the inferrred conclusion is that it was the smoking that did it & that smoking is therefore good for you. So what about her neighbor who lived beyond the average life expectancy and didn't smoke? Kind of a small sample size isn't it? mark24: Logical coherence doesn't have to = truth. Sorry, but it doesn't. Yes it does. Otherwise there is no truth for us to believe in like the TOE. But there is other information that we are unaware of, to resolve the difficulties of certain cases (ie. your grandmothers genetic predisposition as well as other enviromental factors).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:51 AM | | mark24 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 226 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:14 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 222 of 297 (418097)
08-26-2007 11:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 220 by jar
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
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Re: Who cares?
Yes or no. Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? ie. is science valid?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 220 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 231 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:23 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 223 of 297 (418098)
08-26-2007 11:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 221 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Sidelined: You agreed in #207 that there must be a logical reason for God. Logic then must then restrain God in his actions therefore is greater than God. Are yo saying that logic is self control?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM | | sidelined has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 224 of 297 (418099)
08-26-2007 11:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:54 AM
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Ringo: I said nobody can see Him, i.e. God. Your notion that God = logic is not a given here. Well you flew right over my point then... without discussing it. If logic is not God, then why do you presume the scientific method to be our only salvation? The whole venture of science is only valid if the notions (as you put it) are legitimate. We certainly have faith that they are...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:54 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:17 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 225 of 297 (418101)
08-26-2007 11:13 AM
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The joy of it all...
The irony and mysteriousness of the fact that there are four or five guys here, using logic to deny or question logic is almost too much for me to handle. Do we have faith in it or not? Oh the joy of it all.
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 228 of 297 (418105)
08-26-2007 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 226 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:14 AM
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Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24: Any logically valid syllogism can be wrong as demontrated by new evidence. Like the TOE? mark24: This is why science never caims to have the ultimate truth, it always allows for something to be wrong. Because it is logical?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 226 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:14 AM | | mark24 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 232 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:24 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 229 of 297 (418106)
08-26-2007 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:17 AM
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Ringo: The whole venture of science - which deals with the physical world - is valid only if the notions about the physical world are valid. Notions about the non-physical world (if any) are not relevant - i.e. do not cohere. But the notions themselves are the non physical world. And it is those notions (laws) that bind the physical world together. Without the laws and forces (non-physical) the phisical world would not stay together. But it does stand firm as a result of the non physical laws that sustain it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:17 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:30 AM | | Rob has replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 230 of 297 (418107)
08-26-2007 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:17 AM
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Ringo: The scientific method is our best way of understanding the physical world. Logic is a tool of that method. Logic is that method. Take logic out of that equation and what do you have? The TOE...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:17 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
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Message 233 of 297 (418110)
08-26-2007 11:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 231 by jar
08-26-2007 11:23 AM
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Re: False dichotomy.
jar: The difference, and a significant one, is that science then runs tests and experiments to attempt to verify conclusions. It does NOT rely on axioms that are assumed to be true. So what is science testing for if not logical coherence? And are they not assuming that logical consistency (though sometimes wrong due to lack of information) is axiomatic and our only tool to shed light on reality?
Yes or no. Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? ie. is science valid? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 231 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:23 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 242 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM | | Rob has replied |
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