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Author Topic:   Your reason for accepting evolution
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 3 of 111 (431478)
10-31-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Beretta
10-30-2007 10:54 AM


In general, when examining a historical claim we have to look at the evidence. We have to then say, if this historical claim is true, what unique piece of evidence (or collection of evidence) simply has to come out of it?
In the case of natural history, we'd expect to find a pattern emerging in the fossil record which showed a nested hierarchy of forms. We'd expect that pattern to be defined it terms of age and location. We'd expect that any imperfectly inherited property above and beyond physical appearance would match this same pattern. We'd expect that whenever we develop a dating pattern, the dates will be consistent with natural history and biology. We'd expect that these dates would line up with astronomical historical conclusions.
In the case of special creation, I can think of no evidence that it uniquely postulates because of the 'miracle' factor. For example: it predicts that there will a sudden emergence of families in the fossil record (birds suddenly appearing at the same time that cats suddenly appear at the same time that humans suddenly appear), when we don't see this evidence it postulates a miracle that means the evidence looks different. Thus: no concrete predictions can be made.
Between the two models, and given the success of the natural history model in its predictions - I'd go for the former. Why would you choose the latter, unless it was simply a matter of faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 10:54 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Annafan, posted 10-31-2007 9:49 AM Modulous has not replied
 Message 22 by Beretta, posted 11-04-2007 8:58 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 92 by jsaunders327, posted 11-09-2007 2:09 AM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 111 (432193)
11-04-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Beretta
11-04-2007 8:58 AM


Re: Predictions
What about the Cambrian Explosion? Evolution predicts gradual transitions instead, suddenly complex and varied types all appear at once.
Evolution doesn't predict gradual transitions will be recorded in the fossil record.
Why?
I'll quote the answer to you:
quote:
One huge problem with finding such
animals is that they did not have hard
skeletons that would mineralize and become
fossils. So we must rely on uncovering
the rare deposit that, because of
the type of rock and the chemical processes
involved, preserves intricate details
of the remains. These deposits are
called lagersttten, a German word that
means “lode places” or “mother lode.”
A lagersttte that preserves soft tissue is
a spectacular rarity; we know of only
several dozen scattered over the earth.
From SciAm
Before hard body parts, we have little fossil evidence because the kind of rock that preserves soft body parts is very very rare. So, as various lineages started to develop hard body parts their opportunity to be fossilized is raised. So we see in the non-lagerstatten, a sudden appearance of organisms with hard body parts. However - diversity did still increase rapidly. The theory here is that life was beginning to transform the world and a subsequent increase in the opportunities for life on it.
quote:
These biological interactions played a strong role in the
early evolution of animals. Yet as Charles Marshall of Harvard
University has argued and as our findings support, the genetic
tool kit and pattern-forming mechanisms characteristic of
bilaterians had likely evolved by the time of the Cambrian
explosion. Thus, the “explosion” of animal types was more
accurately the exploitation of newly present conditions by
animals that had already evolved the genetic tools to take
advantage of these novel habitats rather than a fundamental
change in the genetic makeup of the animals.
The creation model says there was a worldwide flood - so sudden catastrophic processes buried billions of life forms in sediment, excluding oxygen, rapidly forming many sediment layers with sea creatures forming around 95% (or more) of the fossils that are found would seem to me to be a more acceptable proposition
Which leads to the prediction that 5% or less of the fossils will be non-marine? Thus we should see this approximate mix equally in all layers in all places (since it was a worldwide flood).
Well preserved fossils don't form gradually by dying and being slowly covered over over a long time period.(They would rot or being scavenged).
So your prediction would be that almost all animals were fossilized at this time, since they were all subject to approximately the same conditions?
The uniformatarian principle became accepted as the alternative to the big flood by various atheist or materialistic geologists who were not keen on the flood proposition and wanted another explanation (any other explanation).
Irrelevant. Let's just look to the facts, not the motives behind various factions, OK?
Birds and cats and everything appearing suddenly and simultaneously in the fossil layers would not be a creationist proposition since creationists do not believe that the sedimentary layers represent long periods of geologic time. Creationists believe in some kind of rapid hydrologic sorting such as that seen at Mt St Helens in 1980 as the mechanism at work in sedimentary layers
I'm aware of creationist propositions. They have yet to explain how this hydrologic sorting makes the layers in the pattern that they do, as if each different layer represented a different 'age'. Indeed many creationist geologists had come to the conclusion that to explain the evidence we would have to propose multiple catastrophes, Noah's being the last one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Beretta, posted 11-04-2007 8:58 AM Beretta has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 102 of 111 (433067)
11-09-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jsaunders327
11-09-2007 2:09 AM


Re: You are quite right and wrong
Much of what you have said is not advancing the topic, and instead distracting from it. There are threads for those topics. However, I wouldn't want to be thought of as dismissive, so
Ever see a dead animal lay around for a week? Not much left to turn into a fossil, is there?
I will just say this. This is something so easily researched, it goes to show how badly wrong you can be. This seems to be a big premise of yours, that dead animals have mostly degraded within a week, yet it is obviously false. I have seen a week old dead animal. You can look at one here if you have the stomach for such things. You got a simple fact completely wrong, do you honestly think you are assessing the comparatively complex science of evolution and geology based on accurate understanding of the facts? Anyway - I look forward to seeing you participate in some of the other threads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jsaunders327, posted 11-09-2007 2:09 AM jsaunders327 has not replied

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