Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

King James:Ezekiel:38:1

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The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army”your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops”the many nations with you.

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Don't you think that you should go on a mission to the Middle-East, buzsaw, and attempt to persuade the countries of that area to return to more traditional types of arms and military transport?Your claim that the madman Ezekiel was referring to modern times looks ludicrous while troops in the area insist on defying the scriptures by using tanks, helicopters and jet airplanes in place of horses, not to mention guns, missiles, bombs and body armour in place of the swords and shields they should be using.So why not go there, find Gog the great Prince, and tell him he should be making more effort to fit in with your fantasies.

Everything he says indicates that he was referring to his own times and the near future. If he was getting generalized information, he shouldn't have put words like horse, sword and shield into the mouth of his God, should he? Or mentioned specific Princes, like Gog. Well, we can be sure that it isn't now, as there's no Prince called Gog charging around on a horse with a sword in one hand and a shield on the other. It says swords, mate, not missile launchers. Elsewhere, your favourite epileptic mentions bows and arrows. Given your capacity for self-delusion, perhaps you can fantasise around the fact that bows are missile launchers of a sort, but you'll have to stretch it to pretend to yourself that arrows are rockets!

"To be fair", isn't it possible that unicorns roamed the plains of Mongolia 5,000 years ago? Biblical literalists cannot have their cake and eat it, which answers your post, really. If second comings are second comings, then bows and arrows are bows and arrows, and horses are horses, and swords are swords.You don't need to be generous with Bible nuts, Taz. Give them an inch, and they'll take a million miles.

So you and Buzsaw believe in different Gods. No surprises there. It seems that there are as many Christian Gods as there are Christians.Your God died to save the people of Tyre, Babylon etc. from his own wrath?And Christians regard pagans who believe in thunderbolt throwing Gods as having silly superstitions.Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

They would describe them in terms of their culture. "Huge blasts of God's wrath" might be atomic bombs, and "grey angels of death from the heavens" might be the jet fighters, for example.They certainly would not mistake them or associate them with men on horses with swords, shields, bows and arrows.If you were a visionary prophet, and you saw people 2000 years in the future ingesting food rapidly through their skins aided by some mysterious technology, you wouldn't tell your flock that you'd seen our descendants in McDonalds chewing on burgers, would you?Or would you? I'm beginning to wonder.

Don't tell me, tell Taz!So you must agree with me that Buzsaw needs urgently to go to the Middle-East and start a Luddite or Butlerian revolution. He could start an iron age arms manufacturing business. I spent some time there around 20 years ago, and I didn't see a single person carrying a sword. The situation is dire. How can you put someone to the sword if you haven't got one?

Easily your best argument so far.

Keep on like this, and Buzsaw will start believing that you're a prophet.

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Bluegenes: Keep on like this, and Buzsaw will start believing that you're a prophet.

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Yes, so I prophesied.

Read the verses I quoted again. Are you suggesting that the use of the word "prince" is wrong, and that Gog was a land, or the angel of a land? I've put another bit in bold, for your eschatological mind to exercise itself on.King James:Ezekiel:38:1

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The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army”your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops”the many nations with you.

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The thing about this is that if you take it literally, you've got the word of a God coming to a man (Ezekiel) telling him to tell a living prince of two lands that He (the God) is against him (the prince) and will cause him to come out with his great army, with their horses, swords, shields etc.So, you're clearly not taking this translation literally. You can change the words to fit your desire for an imminent armageddon and second coming. If you can change the words to mean that the God is saying that he will cause the long distant descendants of Gog to go forth with their guns, body armour and tanks, you could change them into anything you want to. You seem to be changing the word "prince" to mean "the future people of a land."With that amount of linguistic license, you could equally change the word "Israel" into "America" and make the whole thing into a story about what will happen to your country in 500 years time. Whatever you feel like, and whatever fits your desires.Your logic could be "how would Ezekiel know about the future chosen people of God and their homeland (the Americans), so he would describe his visions by referring to lands that he knew of."That's the exact same argument that you use for the weapons, when you claim that Ezekial could have described modern weapons in terms of his own culture, and turned a missile launcher on a tripod into a (three legged:rolleyes bow.So, all you're doing is playing with the words and phrases of some cryptic prophesies to make them mean what you want them to mean. And the fancy name for this process of self-delusion is "eschatology".

If the word "prince" can mean "demon prince" and the word "horses" can mean "tanks", and the word "locust" could mean "demons", then the word "prophecy" could mean "bullshit" and the word "prophet" could mean "delusional schizophrenic" or "bullshitter".Is the Bible the word of God to you?In the verses I quoted, Ezekiel says the word of God came to him, and he proceeds to give us God's words, and those words include horses and horsemen, shields (large and small), helmets, and swords (which will be brandished). Elsewhere in the chapter, we get bows and arrows.It's your Holy Book, and your God, and he seems to be very definite about the type of technology these armies of the prince are using, and that is not the technology of today.You can change these words to suit your desires, but don't you risk the eternal damnation of your God by putting words into his mouth? If he had wanted to describe tanks, jet fighters and rocket launchers in the words of the times, he certainly could have done so.Are you suggesting that your God is such an idiot that the best description of a gun he could come up with was just to call it a sword?Beware the eternal fire, O Buzsaw.Edited by bluegenes, : typo

Which means that you have no answer to the obvious point that prophecies about armies on horse back with swords and shields have nothing to do with modern times. I have a good understanding of the capacity of the religious mind for self-delusion, which means, unlike you, I do know how eschatology works. Your prophesies are supposed to come true in the here, now, and physical. Does blossoming mean being about the most troubled country I've ever visited? Most of the Diaspora have not returned to Israel, and I don't blame them. And some Jews never left the area. Kingdoms have monarchs, BTW. There's nothing phenomenal about modern Zionism. The Jews invented the myth that they were the chosen tribe of God with a promised land, and the modern movement is because of this belief. It is self-fulfilling prophesy. It's as if you had a grandmother who was considered to be a visionary, and she had predicted that the Buzsaw family would move from New York to Chicago in the year 2009, then you go and move to Chicago because of your belief in her powers, then start going on about how the prophecy was fulfilled.As for giving your God credit, I certainly give belief in the Abrahamic God by all three of his religions a lot of credit for the current mess in the middle-east. I have figured, and you haven't. The "chosen tribe of God" were in land disputes with their neighbours at the time of Moses, and have been ever since, including at the time of Ezekiel. There's nothing magic in it. It's hardly the only example of neighbouring tribes having land and border disputes in different periods of history.The prophecy says Gog, not his descendents, will come forth with his low-tech armies. Your eschatology is clearly based on terminology. If some of the words seem to fit your view, you try to take them as written. When they don't, they become "metaphorical".Edited by bluegenes, : typo

Things aren't quite going according to the prophet Buzsaw's plan, Paul. http://stlouis.ujcfedweb.org/page.aspx?id=144274

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Tel Aviv (dpa) - In Israel, the number of emigrants exceeded the number of immigrants for the first time in 20 years, the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot reported Friday.

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Many emigrants were recent arrivals who wanted to leave Israel again, the report said. In 2007, 14,400 immigrants are expected in Israel while 20,000 people are expected to leave the country, according to the report based on figures for the first months of 2007.

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The last time emigration exceeded immigration was in the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur War and in 1983 and 1984 when inflation was high.

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Meanwhile the Maariv newspaper reported that approximately a quarter of the Israeli population was considering emigration.

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Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.

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That'll leave plenty of room for the incoming Israelis, then, won't it?