Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

I am at a computer away from home, but if you read scholarly works such as the Anchor Bible Dictionary (which I admit I havnt done in many months) and look at entries like Idumea (sp?), Nabateans , etc. then you will find that there was a great expansion of Arabian tribes around the period 600-550 BCE and that Edom was indirectly pressured to move west.The Edomites moved quite close to Jerusalem and infact became a large part of Philistia.Almost all Edomites became Jewish (over time)by the time of Christ.There is some debate whether the Eomites were forced to become Jewish or whether they choose to do so without much imposition.The Anchor Bible Dictioary refers to all sorts of scholarly debates in literally hundreds of publications (footnotes show them typically in German works but many in English as well).I have also read discussions of this issue in works written since 1992.Josephus even talks about some of these issues.It seems to me that Edomites would be mixed in with modern Jews at least as much as anybody else, and many of the modern Arab peoples (Palestinian bedouins, Jordanians, etc.) could have much blood from the invading "Arab" tribes (I forget if they were north or south Arabian- but didnt you mentioned tribes like Dedan and Sheba, didnt you?) from the period after 600 BCE and which pressured Edom.Many Jews were of Edomite descent and it is equally true that many Jews (of various backgrounds)thereafter were equally absorbed by many respective peoples of various backgrounds and in various lands.Back to "prophecy"I dobnt know what one can make if the historical situations(s!) from various time periods EVEN of one masters the respective historical background from each period.I do know that the New Testament didnt say anything about any future conflicts between Jews and Edom or between Jews and any other semitic (or Persian) people.Nothing about "mother Russia" either. Or China.Seems to me that the events 600-550 BCE were ancient history by the time of Christ.They werent the subject of eschatology discussions or predictions.

Job has been the subject of many scholarly commentaries from north-west semitic scholars.Many books can be purchased which use the (Hebrew type)language of Job to help date the book.There have been some interesting theories (William Albright oncementioned that he feels it was written by a north-Israelite after the fall in 721 , and promised to publish his details).Go to Amazon and look for keywords "JOB" and "COMMENTARY".The Anchor Bible Commentary was edited by Albright but he didnt write the commentary on Job.I havnt read it.Anyway....Nobody places the book anywhere near "the flood".BTW, when was the flood? Abraham (if he existed, which conservative scholars tend to believe) can be easily placed at around 2000 BCE. But written records go back nearly 1000 years before that.Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilization started 1000 years before then.But the King James places the Tower of Babel and Great Flood just a few hundred years before.Assuming there are geneological gaps then would you place Job around roughly 20,000 BCE since you said it was just after the flood? Or around Abrahams time?What means do you have to date Job and what do you make of the date of the Hebrew dialect it used throughout?

Good grief! I have attempted to ignore all the absurd comments from Buz which claim that Islam wants "Israel" destroyed (Israel=Jews when refering to prophecy talk)The Edomote nation (Idumea or whatever) vanished yet they were about the furthest thing from enemies of "Israel" that one can imagine.During the middle ages 80% of Jews lived in Islamic lands (with complete freedom as opposed to the situation in fundi-Xtian Europe)) and Palestinian Jews fought alongside Musilims against fundamentlaist Christian invaders.Odd that those same fundamentalist Christians have survived and thrived.Infact fully 99% of audio/video media (aside from the internet)in the USA (the world power) is run by Fundi-Xtians. (50 million+ right-wing radio listeners, 3 million Fox viewers,verses about 1 million PBS viewers or 500,000 MSNBC listeners).Heck we spend $715 billion per year on military spending mainly because of fundi-Christian voters and their crazed obsession with ensuring "prophecy" is fulfilled via making the Middle-east a complete mess.Those same fundi Christians want 99% of all Jews to die (all but 144,000) by "1988" I mean "2000" I mean "2011-2018" (Van Imp's latest prediction.The historic Jew-killers (European fundi-Christians) have thrived.Their defenders (Muslims, Edomites, and Palestinians) have suffered.Speaking of "Hard empirical evidence"....

(still being edited)I hope to create an engaging discussion among posters.Im going to leave this post blank so I can come back and edit a table of contents type of post to keep things orderly.ISSUE #1 (posts 212-213)My first post(s) are going to cover the Jewish view of Ezekiel 35-40 during the period just after the Islamic Liberation of Palestine in 638 AD.First I will lay a little historical groundwork.(coming)EDIT: I havnt had the time I needed today, but will try and get a little something done, but will have to finish another day.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

But here I cant get the old link to work but this was accessed jan 1 2007 athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f3aRnkgOWsAlso see.NOTEdeleted link because its messed screen up (edited around 4 hours after post was made)I ask you to please provide a substantive objection to my posts however.I really dont know how (or what exactly) to respond when you throw cheap and vague insults.The world didnt end in 1988 when the "40 year generation" was the standard.Then it became "2000-2005" once the standard was 1967.Now we are up to a "51.4" year generation.(As for statement about only 144,000 Jews surviving, that is a dispensationalist interpretation of Revelation.Tim LaHaye only thinks 2/3s of all Jews will die so I suppose nearly 5 million Jews are allowed to survive in his prophecy driven fantasy)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Nobody is forcing you to use a URL which leads you to a discussion on the prophecy views of over 100 million Americans (ie dispensationalism).It is also somewhat of a political discussion because dispensationalists arent mere spectators but they feel the need to drive prophecy toward its completion.If you find a discussion-centered around a major force in our world today-boring then fine.Good luck in pulling the gun from your head;I sure hope the trigger isnt pulled simply because you are leaving a topic you find boring.

Jews were prevented from entering Jerusalem during the entire Christian period (post 300AD) until the Persians briefly took Jerusalem in 614. Then, near the end of the Byzantium period, there is some possible evidence of a few Jews in Jerusalem. Then on p 786 Meir Ben-Dov talks about the "Tumultuous events" of the early 7th century. Jews were slaughtered by the Roman Christians just 14 years after Jews gained access via the Persians.Here is some background to the 614 Persian/Jewish invasion For more details, see post 140 in the link below.http://EvC Forum: Is the bible the word of God or men? -->EvC Forum: Is the bible the word of God or men?Jews were allowed to return and they, along with Christians, outnumbered Muslims till the first successful Crusade in 1099.After 638, Bahat mentions in the 1993 NEAEHL (vol 3. p 786 and yes he authored both the encyclopedia text and BAR article)that the Christian character of Jerusalem didnt change overnight "However with the coming of Muslim imigrants and the conversions that followed the Arab conquest, the proportion of Christians in the population fell steadily".He commented on the 1099 situation once European Christians took the city. Speaking of the Jewish people, Time-life books says I forgot the page number (below) but will edit it in later England in 1290, France in 1394 and when Christians ended 700 years of Islamic rule in Spain , Jews were expelled (with Muslims) in 1492.A speech by Pope Urban II on November 18, 1095 lead to the Crusades. That is the background.Now I will quote Jews from the time just after 638 AD. (next)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I will only quote extremely select parts from a great book: Jerusalem by F.E. Peters with a dedication "For Moshe and Bertha Barasch of Jerusalem Who deserve well of that glorious place".It covers many quotes from Jerusalem period by period.I will only cover a few quotes from the early Islamic period, and they will be only select parts(roughly 1/10 of a text will be quoted).There are more writings I could quote but wont.First a few lines from a apocalyptic poem.here is a tiny part of the intro by Peters Here are some lines (the book has it in italics)from the roughly 30 line poem. A Karaite Jew, Salman ben Yeruham said this (below) from about 950 said...I will substitute "{" and "}" for "[" and "]" and remember that the text is in italics in the book. Next is a a quote of a rabbinic sage from around 750 BCE named Simon ben Yohai
(first quick commentary from Peters) The Jewish text The 7th century Jews took a spiritual interpretation of Ezekial.The Western Christians were "Edom" and Ishmael/Arabs initiated an apocalyptic set of events which led to the return to Jerusalem of Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple.If there was yet any future prophecy ("future" as in post-biblical times)in the Biblical texts , then the 7th century CLEARLY was the time.I have said as much in debates with dispensationalistsSee post my post 60 in link below and IamJosephs responce in post 62.See the exchange between Buz and myself from posts 77 to 90 in the same link. Post 88 is the post where I think I spell it out very clearly.http://EvC Forum: fulfilled prophecy - specific examples. -->EvC Forum: fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.Now, I want to call attention to a fantastic 13 page article in BAR by Moshe Sharon.He starts out by pointing out that every major city of Syria except Caesarea opened its gates to the Muslims around 638 C.E. including Jerusalem.Jerusalem could have easily held off the Muslims but the Christian patriarch surrendered to a "minor" Arabian officer.He points out that most Arab sources skip the anti-climactic details. The compiler of the tradition was Islamic scholar al-Wasiti, a resident of Jerusalem.Sharon says he went into great detail about the various reasons for building the Dome of the Rock.He describes Hebrew prayers, that Muslims used though he himself doesnt know the translation, and Jewish ritualsSharon mentions... It is ironic that the Temple has already been rebuilt and the Jews have already been able to return for 1300 years.The "Old City" was roughly 45% of Jerusalems land area since the days of Solomon and most of its population lived there.There were only 1500 Jews during Solomons time in all of Jerusalem.There were more Jews in the Old City from 638 C.E.-1948 C.E. than during the entire time of Solomon except during crusader times.There were more Jews in the Old City (ie historic "Jerusalem") 300 years ago than there are today.Christians gained religious freedom for the first time ever in 638 CE.If there was a prophetic event then 638 CE was it.It was a good year to be a freedom loving Christin or a Jew.A groundbreaking year that signaled a new era.Edom was defeated.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

The "prophecy" we hear about by fundi's comes from dispensationalism which started with John Nelson Darby c1800 CE.Everybody knows he invented the "rapture" but Darby himself said that he never could have invented the rapture doctrine untile he "discovered" that "Israel" was NOT the body of Christians as orthodox Christians (or any Christian up till his time) have always believed , but actually a race which is distinct from the church.Hence, racial descendants of ancient Israel, especially Judah (ie Jews), have a prophetic plan which does not depend on faith (i.e. they dont need to be Christian) but rather is based on the "unconditional" covenant God made with Abraham c2000BCE.The powerful element in prophecy is a return to the land based on Old Testament prophecies which Darby felt were yet to be fulfilled.The tribulation was yet future and Christians would be spared since the prophecies dont, according to Darby, refer to the church but infact relate to "Israel".Christians will be raptured."Israel" (essentially non-Christian Jews)will face 7 years of tribulation.Dispensationalists make it very clear that God always keeps his promises and thus he will not forget the promise he made to his old friend Abraham 4000 years ago.That is the Abrahamic Covenant.A right to Palestine.An "unconditional" deal God made with the chosen race.No matter what modern-day Jews believe or dont believe (such as a complete rejection of Christ), they have complete rights to their ancient land based on their (unique I suppose?)bloodline.In my next series of posts,I intend to show that the racial argument-which dispensationalism is based on-doesnt work.I will not cover what the Bible actually says in these posts(perhaps later), instead I will assume for the sake of argument that the New Testament actually teaches of an "Israel" based on race in post-Christ times.I will assume for the sake of argument that the dispensationalist interpretation of the New Testament is correct.I will close this post with quotes of leading dispensationalists such as Tim LaHaye and Chuck Missler.Actually, I will save Missler for later(its a dandy-trust me!) The key is not DNA but actually direct ancestry.Jacob and Esau (Edom) were brothers but its the children of Jacob who have the rights that the Abrahamic covenant dictates.LaHaye also said this about the Israelite race. Clearly direct ancestry is fundamental to dispensationalist "prophecy".A racial argument in every way.But are the racial lines the same today as they were 4000 or 3000 even 2500 years ago? (I will address the geographic argument in a few days-and I intend to make excessive use of quotes from dispensationalists at that time; I have many dispensationalists tapes,books, and such and will hammer every last detail of Ezekiel 35:1-39 and the confused arguments dispensationalists make THEN I will compare everything to the archaeological, historical and geographical situation).But first, the racial argument...(anwser coming in the next post or 2)

This period post-dates the Old testament.(post 330 BCE)I will cover the Edomites after they took 2/3s of Judah and mainly were centered in the Negev and to a lesser extent in the southern highland region.I will quote from Lester Grabbe as he seems to be the authority on the 2nd Temple history of the Jewish people.(I forget if this is volume 1 or 2, I have these quotes written on paper and am away from my library) He next quotes Josephus in Ant. So, now a once pagan people that came to inhabit most of Judah also believe the same as Judah.Are they Jews? Are they Edomites? The entire world would say they are "Jews", unless you happen to be a dispensationalist.I wish I could get a good anwser from dispensationalists.But,that aside (for now), lets get back to the history ...(keep in mind that an elipsis with 4 dots "...." between sentences means that I could literally be skipping 95% of a paragraph, and often I am;infact a 3 dotted elipsis actually skips a *hugh* amount of information in one case) My next quotation will skip a ton of details. These historians really amaze me at their depth of study on so many hundreds of issues.Perhaps,dispensationalists can devote the same amount of attention to areas important to their theories (superficiality is the hallmark of dispensationalists "scholarship").Grabbe goes on to talk about an ethnic Arabian tribe (Itureans) which also converted to Judaism.Here is what Josephus says: In a few days I will cover much more accounts of conversions of pagans to Judaism and Jewish converts to Christianity and such.Here is Grabbs informed opinion: Lets move forward and learn more about the most important Idumea. We will take a close look at Kloners work at Marissa in a few days.But quickly,the site that is about a half-mile away: We havnt even scratched the surface of what is about to be covered at Beth Guvrin (in other works).Ill continue in a few days. (still editing post, I didnt get crap done today it seems...)Ill just leave people with an interesting note so far.Imaging if you went back to say 1000 BCE and then looked at the two-thirds of Judah which later became Idumea. Now fast forward to the start of the Common Era (AD 1) 1000 years later.You would see "Jews" in both cases.But there would be quite a biological difference.And it isnt just Judah where that is true.Israel too.

Well,since I have about 100 times more to cover, I will perhaps need to start a new thread(in a few days).But I will come back HERE to re-paste some of the stuff just to see your (non?)responce.But let me show you how my posts were 100% ON-topic.I showed that Edomites fought to their last drop of blood defending Jews.You claimed they would be enemies of Jews in a future time beyond the 6th century BCE.I showed that Muslims have been amazing friends to Jews while (non-Semitic)Christians have only killed them.I showed that the last recorded "prophecy" to the Jewish people spoke of God (YHWH)raising the "Prophet" (Gods words!)Muhammed so Jews would return and see the Temple rebuilt.You spoke of Arabs and Islam as enemies to Jews. (btw I have quotes from leading dispensationalists admitting that Ezekiel 38 SPECIFICALLY states that Arabs will NOT be involved in fighting the battle! Several prophecy scholars have admitted that.)I have shown that Edomites converted to Judaism and began to show that they remained Jews.Yet your prophecy scenario requires two distinct Edomite/Judaic peoples in the 1940s AD if the prophecies (35:1-36:15) refer to 1948.I will also drop a bomb (several actually) on you later as well. I will quote dispensationalists who say that Ezekiel 35-37 requires an empty land.They feel the 1900's AD fit that description.I will show population statistics which show that the lowest point in population for Palestine since circa 2000 BCE was the period just after 587/582 BCE and it lasted till Jews started to return in 522 BCE. (population was still fairly sparse for over 100 years.)The population for ALL of Palestine (c580-c520 BCE) dropped to perhaps less than 20,000 though it was over 100,000 at 600 BCE and over 200,000 in the 8th century BCE.Yet in 1893 AD, there were 466,000 Arabs and 60,000 Jews in Palestine.1800's Palestine was just as dense as the USA was in 1945 AD.Palestine was as dense in 1914 as the USA was till about 1973.Palestine has NEVER been less dense than the United States in the last 2000 years.The land was not desolate except in the 6th century BCE. Ezekiel wrote no later than about 560 BCE (Ezekiel dates it exactly, but I forget the exact dates at the moment)and mainly wrote in the 570s BCE and even critical scholars generally agree with the dates presented.I will show you even more hard-hitting facts which you will ignore and claim are off topic. (but in my own thread save some I will paste here later)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Here Buz is the LAST prophecy that I know of that God gave to the Jews.Nistarot de-Rabbi Shim'on Bar Yohaysee Adolph Jellinek, ed. , Bet Ha-Midrasch (Leipzig, 1853), vol. 3, p. 79Here is a more accessible translation. Not only did Christ not mention anything about Arab wars with Jews...Not only did Ezekial fail to mention Arabs fighting Jews(or better put he specifically said Arabs would NOT be fighting, Ezekiel only mentioned Turkey, Sudan, and Iran fighting but Turkey was the main enemy with the other two just tagging along)...But Gods last prophecy (I think the prophecy dates to around 628-638 A.D. but scholars place it around 750 A.D.)to the Jews talked of Arabs freeing Jews from the enemy from the north (in Turkey!)we know as the Byzantine empire.Amazing that you simply ignore that as if it is off "topic".I think the Biblical prophecies were fulfilled around the 6th century BCE but at least I am honest enough to consider the 7th century AD as a possible fulfillment of prophecy (I should consider all avaliable evidence and I advise you to do the same)