Probability of the existence of God

Hi Cs, Message 85
Where does the scripture you quoted say that Thomas touched Jesus.Seems to me you are just reading that into the passage. Message 89
Thanks.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

But Thomas stuck his finger in Jesus' side....I don't think Jesus was referring to sight and sight alone when he refers to 'not seeing'.Even in modern usage of the word we might say that someone "saw for themself" when referring to some other sense that they used. To me, it just doesn't seem to be what Jesus is saying.I believe that those who don't see yet believe come to believe by faith. Their faith is what allows them to believe in the absense of evidence, but the faith, itself, is not the evidence. It can't be the evidence because then we have the circular definition. I understand the definition, I just don't subscribe to it because that isn't how it works for me personally.Also, if faith is the god supplied cause, and some people are without faith (not by choice) then god has let them down. I just don't see faith as being that way. It isn't for me, at least.Faith isn't some stuff that provides me with the reason to believe. I believe without reason because I have faith. I don't need a reason if I have faith. But my faith is not my evidence for believing, its a lack of evidence. And that counters what I understand Jesus' teaching to be about having faith in the absense of evidence as being blessed. But man cannot control what he finds convincing and what he doesn't. I can't just choose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

John 20:

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27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

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Seems you don't know what pedantry is.

Hi CS, Could you point out the specific words that says Thomas reached out and touched Jesus. Maybe I don't but if it hasn't changed it has to do with presentation or application of knowledge or learning.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Ugh....John 20:

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27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

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Oh but it doesn't say that he actually did it You, yourself, on this forum, have added a lot more to less with that crap about Gen 2 being in between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, or whatever it was, so don't give me this crap about what the Bible actually says. From wiki

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A pedant, or pædant, is a person who is overly concerned with formalism and precision, or who makes a show of learning.

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The term is typically used with a negative connotation, indicating someone overly concerned with minutiae and detail and whose tone is perceived as condescending.

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However some people take pride in being a pedant, especially with regard to the use of the English language

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Or the use of the Bible....

Hi Wumpini, Depending upon how you use the word Christian I may or may not agree with the above statement.If you mean anyone who has made a profession of faith or is a member of a some church I could agree with you.If you are talking about someone who has met Jesus and accepted Him as personal Savior and been born again by the Holy Spirit coming in and sealing his soul until the day of redemption, I have to disagree with you.The Spirit born person can not doubt that God is. Because he has God dwelling within.He may doubt many things but he will never doubt God's existence.The problem is most people who believe in Jesus, have joined a church and been baptized have head knowledge only. They are in the same boat as the devils. It takes more than head knowledge about God.A person that only has head knowledge will doubt that God exists because he has no evidence as the person that has received the Holy Spirit.As has been pointed out there are some very educated people on this site in worldly terms of knowledge.But worldly knowledge and spiritual knowledge are two different things.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi CS, I do not add anything to Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 2:4. Genesis 2:4 says it is the generations of the heavens and the earth in the day they were created. They were created in Genesis 1:1 therefore Genesis 2:4-Genesis 4:26 go with Genesis 1:1.For me not to believe that is to doubt God, and the way He presented the story to Moses. CS I have built things all my life, roads, bridges, houses, and cabinets and you have to be pretty precise in doing those things are you make a mess.The same thing applies to God's Word. I can take the scripture and twist it to say just about anything I want it to say. But if I study the Word of God and let it interpet itself being precise in what it says allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in all truth I can find the truth.That is why I can be 100% sure I will see God the moment my spirit leaves this earthly body.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Like the truth that Thomas didn't touch Jesus? But you could be wrong....And how do you know that it isn't Satan disguised as the Holy Spirit giving you false interpretations to lead you astray?

Which only goes to underline my point. We can agree that Thomas believed due to the evidence provided by his empirical senses - touch, sight, hearing etc. (Empirical) evidence leads to belief.Now we have Jesus saying that there will be people who will believe even though their empirical senses won't be utilised in the process of them believing. They will believe not by evidence provided by empirical senses but (you seem to agree) by this thing called faith.But we have a definition of faith in the Bible (even if that doesn't match the definition in the dictionary). Faith is defined as a specific kind of evidence. Evidence for non-empirical things.If people believe in non-empirical things (as Jesus says they will) on account of faith then the biblical case clearly indicates them believing because of evidence available to them. This...- ...is your perogative. The biblical case is fairly straighforward however- We only have a circular definition because you assert faith to be blind belief in the absence of evidence whereas the Bible says otherwise. It's your dictionary definition vs. the biblical definition then. The biblical case certainly doesn't involve circular reasoning given that people believing on account of faith is the same as saying people believing on account of evidence.People believing on account of evidence is usually the reason why people believe anything. I can't think of anything anyone believes in without some evidence of some description supporting the belief.The general term for evidentialess belief isn't usually 'faith'. It would be more like "wishful thinking", "blind hope", "wild guessing"- Why so? IF the time at which God provides evidence of his existance happens to be after a person passes the point of being saved - AND they are permitted the opportunity to reject being brought to that point THEN God would not be letting them down in not providing them evidence of his existance.They wouldn't qualify for exposure to it by virtue of their choice.- It's Jesus' teaching so heavily modified as to render it other than his teaching. He says "belief without sight". You say "faith without evidence" - clearly contradicting the the biblical definition of faith in the process.- It's not mans job to convince man of God. Man's part can be rejecting Gods attempt to bring him to the point whereby God will convince man of God.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

As pointed out, the word faith is like the word death.. is like the word sleep. In this instance Jesus uses faith and belief interchangably. "Be not faithless but be believing" means "be not un unbelieving but have faith".If you applied this use to yourself you would find yourself arguing in a circle. You say you believe by faith. But faithfulness is believing in this case. Meaning you believe because you believe. As pointed out, this presupposes your being justified in altering the words that Jesus spoke.

Whoops, I misunderstood that point but its clear now. Yes, yes whatever. Lets just discuss from a Biblical standpoint, ok?I’m reposting the passages in question for clarity . Hebrews 11:

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1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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From John 20:

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27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

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28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

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29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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The way Jesus talks of faith doesn't seem to fit with the Hebrews definition...How did Thomas get faith by seeing Jesus if faith is the evidence for things that are not seen?Thomas’s evidence for his belief is not his faith, he only gets his faith after he gets the physical evidence, and the physical evidence is what allowed him to believe.Jesus says that those who are blessed {as opposed to the blessed } are the ones that believe without seeing (ie evidence). If you are going to equate faith with evidence, then you are believing by seeing... Jesus doesn't explicitly say that you are unblessed, but the implication is there.

Then the same could be said about the definition provided by Hebrews....Faith itself isn't a substance, they were talking about believing To me, it seems like you are the one doing the altering

I am arguing that Jesus is clearly using the words "faith" and "belief" as meaning the same thing here. It wouldn't be the first place that this has happened. Paul, in arguing for righteous-by-faith in Romans focuses on the example of Abraham. He gives his example as a proof that this is men have always been saved. Yet he (and the OT) tells us that Abraham believed God and was declared righteous as a result. Righteousness by faith = Righteousness by belief. The words being rendered equivilent by Paul in this instance.Now either faith/belief always mean the same thing (rendering your saying you believe by faith meaning you believe by belief). Or they can mean the same thing at one time and different things at the other. If the latter then the Hebrew definition points to another. That is not to exclude a third way but if a third way then we need a biblical case for it. Thomas got his faith (= belief) via empirical evidence. The person who hasn't got empirical evidence gets their faith (= belief) via faith (=non-empirical evidence). The argument is partily made by remembering there are at least two different meanings for the word "faith". Other elements of the argument have already been made- the use of "not seen" by both Jesus and the Hebrews definition of faith- the fact that nobody believes anything without some kind of evidence for that belief. Hopefully this issue is resolved for you now. Firstly, I am not equating faith with evidence, the Bible is.Secondly, you are inserting the word 'evidence' for the word 'seeing' when the contextual use of "seeing" refers directly to the physical seeing/touching/hearing/whatever of Thomas. There is no justification (that I can see) for suddenly expanding "not seeing" to include no evidence of any description. Contextually, "seeing" and therefore "not seeing" refers to empirical evidence only.I would agree that you could read the implication 'unblessed' into what Jesus says. But it's too tenuous a position to rely on that alone. There actually is nothing there to add concrete to the notion that Jesus is making a comparitive statement.Besides, Thomas was most certainly blessed was he not? However he came to believe he did come to believe - which is surely the most blessed thing to have occur to you. If a comparison was being made what would it actually be if both categories of people are blessed in this magnificent sense of believing?Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Belief...the evidence of things not seen? This ruins your own arguement that blessed are those who have belief (the evidence of things not seen) but have no evidence. Jesus himself uses faith and belief interchangeably. Paul uses faith and belief interchangeably. The Bible elsewhere defines faith as being other than belief. I dealing the cards I'm dealt which is a different matter that changing words in a verse.

Hi CS, I would like to point out a couple of things about Thomas.He had been with Jesus for 3 1/2 years. When Jesus was crucified he thought that was the end of everything. When he was told Jesus was alive he could not believe it had happened. How could a man live again?Thomas was a man who did not have the Holy Spirit to lead him and guide him. All he had was what he could see and understand by the knowledge he posessed.The Holy Spirit did not come until after Jesus had left and Pentecost was fully come.But when he saw the spike holes in His hands and the spear hole in His side all doubt was removed.A person today who has received Christ as personal Savior and been sealed by the Holy Spirit has just as much assurance as did Thomas.
He has the Holy Spirit to open his eyes that he might see.In answer to your question in your post to me: Message 98The Holy Spirit only testifies of Jesus. Satan will not testify of Jesus. Everything he puts forth is man being equal to God. The I, Me, and Mine attitude.Satan tells man he can be good enough to go to heaven.The Holy Spirit tells me I am unworthy to see heaven unless I have put total dependance on Jesus by accepting the full pardon offered to me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."