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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 55 of 321 (474072)
07-05-2008 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by autumnman
07-04-2008 10:28 PM


Re: Falling Stars
autumnman writes:
Acknowledging the natural force of gravity; is it not most natural for four tributaries {a.k.a. smaller rivers} to feed into one larger watershed {a.k.a. river)?
In England the Lea river does exactly that. It divides into three or four smaller shallower rivers.
You can find the information Here
It is said that King Alfred did this in 896.
If a King could do that, Why would a God that spoke the universe into existence have a problem with having one large river divide into four smaller shallower rivers to water the garden?
autumnman writes:
So, what do you think?
I believe Eden was a place on earth that God planted a garden in. There was a river that came from Eden and divided into four smaller rivers to water the garden.
One day maybe I will share what I think.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by autumnman, posted 07-04-2008 10:28 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:24 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 58 of 321 (474110)
07-05-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dawn Bertot
07-05-2008 10:46 AM


Re: Falling Stars
bertot writes:
Cant make up your mind, EH. "Free fall from UP"? How did you decide it came from up in space, since it is not headed for earth? Remember this statement: "I don't know if it is up or down or sideways but it is in a hurry."
If space is expanding in every direction at the same time from that little speck that was in the middle of nowhere, How would you determine which direction is up and which is down?
bertot writes:
How and when would a thing turn out ot be figurative, when would we know this exacally? What crteria would you employ?
I will use one example.
I have read where many here say the lake of fire is figurative.
I believe it is literal.
When would we know if it is literal or figurative? At the great white throne judgment when all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.
bertot writes:
By everything do you mean everything in the Bible or in everything in existence?
I was speaking concerning the Bible. But in retrospect I kinda go along with everything period.
I suppose that is why I have so much trouble when discussing cosmology. I believe in fact and fiction. Tentative is just that and is open for discussion.
Genesis 1:1 Is either a fact or a lie. There is no room for discussion.
berot writes:
Did you mean Luke in Acts 20?
Luke was a physician not a prophet. He penned the book of Acts and many of Paul's books. He was a constant companion of Paul. Paul was caught up into the third heaven and saw many things he never repeated but some he did.
bertot writes:
The only point here is, does it "have" to be literal. Cant it be figurative with out an exact reason.
If it is there because God wanted it there it will happen. God does not say or do anything without a reason.
If it is there because someone though that it would magnify a terrible day in that case it would be figurative.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-05-2008 10:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 59 of 321 (474119)
07-05-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by autumnman
07-05-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Canals
autumnman writes:
Split into canals; thanks for that information.
They did not become canals until several hundred years later.
autumnman writes:
So, when Ezekiel refers to Eden as the garden of God and the Mountain of God--sometime before or shortly after the Exile--that makes what kind of sense to you?
Ezekiel was talking billions of years after the Exile.
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
The King of Tyrus.
the Phoenician city on the Mediterranean coast
This King had been in Eden.
This King was created not born.
This King was perfect.
This King was the anointed cherub.
This King had walked in the midst of God's Holy Mountain.
This King was cast out of God's Holy Mountain.
This King was cast to the ground because of iniquity.
This King is still King of the Earth. That will cease one day.
He will remain King until the real King comes to take up His throne.
The King Ezekiel is talking about is Lucifer, Satan, or the Devil whatever name you ascribe to him.
autumnman said: "Ezekiel refers to Eden as the garden of God and the Mountain of God".
Ezekiel does not refer to Eden as the garden and mountain of God.
Ezekiel refered to Eden as the garden of God. No location given.
Ezekiel refered to the mountain of God. No location given.
Eden was on earth.
The mountain of God is in the third heaven. That is the one just outside our universe.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:24 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 10:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 60 of 321 (474141)
07-05-2008 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by autumnman
07-05-2008 11:24 AM


Re: My View
autumnman writes:
Why don't you walk me through your interpretation of the two creation accounts, if you wouldn't mind.
I'd like to become more familiar with your point of view.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is a declared statement. It is either true or false. There is no room for any other answer.
I think because the way man's mind works we find Genesis 1:2 where it is. Man can not comprehend an instant universe. Therefore the seven day of Moses appears next instead of what is supposed to be there.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse declares it is the generations of the heavens and the earth.
This verse declares it is talking about the day that happened at Genesis 1:1.
So the entire story from Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 is talking about the way things happened in the day the Lord God made the heaven and the earth.
Verse 5 tell us this fresh created earth had no plants, it had not rained and there was no mankind.
Verse 6 tell us the face of the ground was watered from beneath.
Verse 7 tell us God formed man from the dry or loose ground.
God breathed the breath of life into man. No other creature.
Verse 8 God planted a garden eastward in Eden. There he put man.
Verse 9 God caused the ground to produce vegetation. Every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food was there.
The tree of Life was there.
The tree of good and evil was there.
Verse 10 A river went out of Eden to water the garden. It parted and made 4 rivers.
Verse 11, 12, 13, & 14 describe the rivers for us.
Verse 15 God gave the man a job to keep the garden.
Verse 16 Man told he could eat of every tree in the garden.
Verse 17 Except the tree of knowledge of good and evil he could not eat from, for in that day he would surely die.
Verse 18 It is not good that man should be alone.
Verse 19 God formed every beast, and every fowl out of the ground. The ground did not produce them God did.
God brought the animals to the man to see what he would call them.
Verse 20 No help meet found for man.
Verse 21 Deep sleep fell upon man, God took a rib.
Verse 22 God made a woman from this rib, and brought her unto the man.
Verse 23 the man called her woman.
Verse 24 the man said mankind would give up everything for woman.
Verse 25 they were man and wife.
Genesis 3
Verse 1 Serpent approached the woman with a loaded question.
Verse 2 woman told serpent they could eat of the fruit of the trees.
Verse 3 Except the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden. We can't eat or touch lest we die.
Verse 4 Serpent told Eve you will not surely die.
Verse 5 Serpent told her your eyes will be opened and you will be as God knowing good and evil.
Verse 6 she took and ate, she gave to the man and he did eat. Man gave up everything for woman.
Verse 7 they knew good and evil. Tried to cover their nakedness.
Verse 8 they heard the voice of the Lord so they hid.
Verse 9 voice asked where art thou.
Verse 10 the man said he was afraid because he was naked.
Verse 11 voice asked who told him he was naked. God then gave man a chance to come clean. He asked did you eat what you shouldest not eat.
Verse 12 typical human blame someone else. He blamed it on God because God gave him the woman.
Verse 13 God asked what she had done. She blamed it on the Serpent.
Verse 14 God didn't ask the Serpent because he would have said it was Satan talking through me. Then He could have asked Satan and He would have said I was just doing what you allowed me to do, so it is your fault. This is one of my wild idea's.
God cursed the Serpent for having been used by Satan.
Verse 15 God then told Satan he would put emity between the seed of woman and him.
Verse 16 God said He would multiply her sorrow in childbirth.
Another wild idea. How can you multiply something unless it already exists?
Verse 17 the man was told he would eat of the knowledge of good and evil all the day of his life.
Verse 18 cursed with thorns and thistles.
Verse 19 man told he would have to work to eat.
Verse 20 Adam = mankind Eve = the first woman.
Verse 21 God made clothes for them.
Verse 22 God said man had become like Him and knew good and evil. Man could not be allowed to eat of the tree of life in that condition.
Verse 23 Therefore God kicked man out of His estate.
Verse 24 God set up a guard to keep the man from getting back in the garden to keep the way of the tree of life.
The next chapter 4:1 through 4:26 gives a little history of what then took place.
There is no mention of day's or night's.
There is no mention of water creatures.
God told the man the day he ate the fruit he would die. He did.
In my previous reply to this message I gave the scripture in Ezekiel where Satan was cast out of the mountain of God.
In Genesis 28:17 it says he was cast down to the ground. The word translated ground is the same word translated earth in Genesis 1:1.
Now as to what happened between Genesis 4:26 and Genesis 1:2 only God and the angels know. Because God does not tell us. I have some pretty wild ideas.
This day has passed and the man who ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil has died.
In Genesis 1:2 we find the earth in a mess. It was void and without form and covered with water.
With all the things that have taken place prior to this situation this could not be the form the earth was in Genesis 1:1.
How did it get in this condition? I have some pretty wild ideas.
But God does not tell us.
It was in a mess and God began to fix the problems.
The first thing needed on earth was some light. God took care of that problem in verse 3.
God then divided the light from the darkness.
It was evening time as the daylight part of this day was taken up between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:5.
So this evening and the next morning was the first day of Moses.
From this time on we have days and nights consisting of around 24 hour periods until we get to the seventh day. The evening and the morning of the seventh day has not arrived yet.
Verse 6, 7, and 8 the waters were divided with a firmament in between which God called heaven. The evening and morning was the second day of Moses.
In verse 9 God gathered water into one place, and let dry land appear.
In verse 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the water's He called seas.
In verse 11, & 12 God said let the earth bring forth vegetation from the seed on the ground it did. No creating involved.
Verse 13 says this was the third day of Moses.
Verse 14 & 15 God said let there be lights in the firmament to give light upon the earth. He did not create them.
Verse 16 God made two great lights. Word translated made means, caused to produce. God caused the great light to produce light and the lesser light to reflect that light.
Verse 17 God set them in the firmament, to give earth light.
Verse 18 to rule over day and night.
Verse 19 Says this was the fourth day of Moses.
Verse 20 Water creatures and fowl brought forth from water.
Verse 21 God did some creating here whales
Verse 22 Creatures told to be fruitful and multiply.
Verse 23 conclusion of the fifth day of Moses.
Verse 24 the earth brought forth the living creature after his kind.
Verse 25 God caused the creatures to produce after it's own kind.
Verse 26 God said let us make man in our image and likeness.
Verse 27 God created mankind in His image a male being and a female being.
Verse 28 God blessed them and told them to be fruitful and multiply.
Verse 29 Declared seed bearing fruit and herbs was for food.
Verse 30 The green herb was for food for all creatures.
Verse 31 This was the end of the sixth day of Moses.
Genesis 2:1 The heavens and the earth was finished.
Verse 2 gives us the morning of the seventh day. Which God took off from His creating work.
Verse 3 God blessed the seventh day. Because He rested from His creative work.
We are fast approaching the evening of that seventh day and the morning will bring a New Eternal Day with a New Heaven and a New Earth all restored back to the glory they had before the first man took the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil from his wife and ate it. Disobeying the only rule God had given him.
The generations of the man created in the Image of God begins in Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Not the day he formed man from the dust of the ground.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:24 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:38 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 62 of 321 (474165)
07-05-2008 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by autumnman
07-05-2008 10:56 PM


Re: Canals
autumnman writes:
You do whatever makes you happy.
Seems like that is what you do.
The word for prince in Ezekiel 28:2 is ’ Transliteration nagiyd
means ruler, prince overseer.
The word for King in Ezekiel 28:12 is — Transliteration melek
The Prince was a ruler over Tyrus. The King was the one over the Prince that he worshiped. The present King of this world.
Now if you want to believe they are the same people that Ezekiel is talking about that is your option.
One question. When was the human prince that is to be spoken to in Ezekiel 28:2 in Eden and the third heaven where God is?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 10:56 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 65 of 321 (474168)
07-06-2008 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by autumnman
07-05-2008 11:38 PM


Re: My ViewICANT:
autumnman writes:
If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that Gen. 1:1 denotes “the first day of creation” and in this “first day of creation Gen. 2:4 thru 4:26” actually takes place. Am I hearing you correctly?
Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of the first day everything from Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 happens in the same time frame. In the evening in Genesis 1:2 The earth is in a mess, and darkness. God speaks light on the earth and divides the light from the darkness. He then declares that the evening and the next morning are the first day.
autumnman writes:
what do you mean by, “This is a declared statement?”
There is no explanation only a statement of fact. In other words God declared it through the writer and we have the option of believing it or rejecting it. It either happened like God said or God does not exist.
autumnman writes:
So when Gen. 1:5 concludes,
Genesis 1:5 is exactly where it is supposed to be at the end of the first day.
God started out with the evening and the morning because the morning that went with that evening had already been.
autumnman writes:
what does, “these are the generations of the heavens and the earth,” refer to?
The generations in Genesis 5:1 gives how long someone lived and then begat so and so etc.
Genesis 2:4 is the only instance of the generations of anything other than man.
Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 is the account of or history of the day God created the heaven and the earth.
autumnman writes:
The Hebrew terminology for “the day” is ‘ = in day or at time. It does not specify a 24 hour period.
Who said anything about a 24 hour time period?
If it equals at time, that would be the same time that God created the heaven and the earth would it not?
autumnman writes:
This is precisely where you are specifically suggesting that Gen. 2:4 thru 4:26 takes place in Gen. 1:1 rather than suggesting that Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24 takes place sometime prior to Gen. 2:1 which specifically states, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.”
If you take Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 put it between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 When you get to Genesis 2:1 everything is finished.
We have a problem understanding eternity which God is eternal. We are limited to time God is not.
Time is marked off from Genesis 1:5 for man's benefit. Time as we know it will cease but God will go on so will His universe.
So we have a hard time thinking that Genesis 1:1 could have been billions of years ago.
I really don't believe you can write a number big enough to cover the amount of time from then until now if time had been counting which it wasn't.
Look at it this way to God there is just one great big now. He see's the man and woman in the garden of Eden and at the same time He see's you today and He sees you at whichever judgment you appear before. God sees all of this at one time.
autumnman writes:
I find it hard to grasp your interpretation that tends to rewrite the first four chapters of Genesis
I am not rewriting anything. I am just trying to read everything where it says it goes.
Remember the old manuscripts did not have chapters and verses. Can you imagine someone reading these verses as I have proposed they claim to go 2500 years ago. They would say no way if God created this thing He would have to have an order in which He did things. Thus for the last 200 years or more Bible scholars have been trying to mesh two stories into one by saying one expanded on the other and just dismissing all the differences.
According to science this earth has seen many extinction events over time as we know it. But there has not been an extenction event since Genesis 2:1. The next extenction event will be the final one as the elements are going to melt with frevent heat.
Then God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:38 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by autumnman, posted 07-06-2008 6:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 66 of 321 (474170)
07-06-2008 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by autumnman
07-05-2008 11:52 PM


Re: Canals
autumnman writes:
At least that is how I see it.
But you totaly ignored the fact that the Prince in Ezekiel 28:2 and the King in Ezekiel 28:12 is not the same entity being addressed.
I got no problem with the Prince in Ezekiel 28:2 being a human who has equated himself with God and is being brought down.
But he got that haughty spirit from his father the devil (Satan).
autumnman writes:
Where do you come up with the “Mountain of God” being associated with the “third heaven”?
The mountain of God is where God is at. Paul paid Him a visit in the third heaven. II Cor. 12:2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by autumnman, posted 07-05-2008 11:52 PM autumnman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-06-2008 1:27 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 321 (474219)
07-06-2008 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by autumnman
07-06-2008 6:51 PM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
I think you may want to rethink your imaginative interpretations of Scripture.
I did not interpet anything.
I took the scriptures as they are written.
I then read Genesis 1:1 which says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
I then read Genesis 2:4 which says: "2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Genesis 1:1 says In the beginning. That is the time it took place.
Here You said:
The Hebrew terminology for “the day” is ‘ = in day or at time.
The day means in day or at time.
According to that Genesis 2:4 is the beginning of the history of the heavens and the earth at time God created the earth and the heaven.
So please explain why the text does not say what it says.
IOW explain why Genesis 2:4 is not the generations of the heavens and the earth as it claims.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by autumnman, posted 07-06-2008 6:51 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by autumnman, posted 07-06-2008 9:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 77 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:13 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 321 (474229)
07-06-2008 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by autumnman
07-06-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
these are the human genealogies that exist at that time.
But there are no human genealogies given.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by autumnman, posted 07-06-2008 9:23 PM autumnman has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 72 of 321 (474234)
07-07-2008 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by autumnman
07-06-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
Gen. 1:1 is written in the Hebrew past tense
Please explain where the past tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
autumnman writes:
Gen. 2:1 describes in the Hebrew future tense
Please explain where the future tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
autumnman writes:
the imperfect tense of Gen. 1:2.
Please explain where the imperfect tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
autumnman writes:
The feminine noun toledot = — is only used to describe human genealogies
Generations = account of men and their descendants
Generations = course of history
Generations = begetting or account of heaven

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by autumnman, posted 07-06-2008 9:23 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 2:11 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 74 of 321 (474254)
07-07-2008 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by autumnman
07-07-2008 2:11 AM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
You are missing the point. Above I am giving the basic foundation of the feminine plural noun: human genealogies.
No. You are telling me that Genesis 2:4 does not say:
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
You are telling me it says:
These are the generations of the humans of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
That is interpertation. Not reading what the scripture says.
Would you explain what Genesis 5:1-3 is the generations of if Genesis 2:4 is the human generations.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
While you are at it could you explain why there is no Cain and Able in these generations.
autumnman writes:
I suspect you are asking how the Hebrew Perfect Tense is designated in a verb.
No.
I asked you to explain where the past tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
autumnman writes:
I suspect you are asking how the Hebrew Imperfect Tense is designated in a verb.
No.
I asked you to explain where the future tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
autumnman writes:
In Hebrew there are only two principle tenses: 1. The Hebrew Imperfect Tense indicates an incomplete action, and this most closely relates to the English Future Tense; 2. The Hebrew Perfect Tense indicates a completed action, and this most closely relates to the English Past Tense.
I asked you to explain where the imperfect tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.
You tell me Hebrew has two tenses, Perfect and Imperfect.
You may be correct that Hebrew has those tenses.
But Biblical Hebrew has no tense at all of any kind.
It has a perfect aspect which is translated into English as past tense.
It has an imperfect aspect which is translated into English future tense.
However, this is only an approximation of the situation.
In other words it don't always work as the Bibical Hebrew has no tense in it.
But you are forcing Bibical Hebrew to fit your modern molds which it simply does not fit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 2:11 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 12:21 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 76 of 321 (474313)
07-07-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by autumnman
07-07-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
I am trying to share with you that the Hebrew Eden Narrative”Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24”is not a documentation of a prehistoric space and time. The Hebrew Eden Narrative is an allegorical/proverbial/poetic representation of how God created the breathing human animal species. Let me translate Gen. 2:4 so that it reflects this a little clearer:
No place in Genesis 2:4 does it mention anything other than the heavens and the earth. I don't care how you twist it, or pervert it.
autumnman writes:
Note that no mention is ever made of the "waters", "seas", or "aquatic creatures."
None of those are mentioned in any verse from Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26.
autumnman writes:
Note also that the author makes no mention of the "sun", "moon", or "the stars."
Shucks, I thought they were a part of the heavens.
autumnman writes:
Pay particular attention that Gen. 5:1 thru 3 refer directly to Gen. 1:26 thru 28. No mention is made of the Eden Narrative or the Cain & Abel Text. The reason for this omission of the Eden Narrative and the Cain & Abel Text is that both of these Narratives are allegorical/proverbial/poetic in composition and do not constitute a documentation of a prehistoric space and time.
Silly me, I thought it was because they were two different stories altogether.
The man and woman created at the same time in Genesis 1:27 was never anywhere near the garden of Eden neither did they have a son named Cain or Abel.
autumnman writes:
both of these Narratives are allegorical/proverbial/poetic in composition
I know you do not believe these are factual accounts.
But I do believe they are the actual factual accounts that God wanted us to have to answer my questions if nobody else's.
I know to you that is foolishness. You ask how do you know that?
God told me through Paul in:
I Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Bible is not a storybook as most people think it is. It is the Word of God and to be able to understand what He is saying you have to know God.
A natural man is one who has been born into this world. To be a spiritual man you have to be born of the Spirit of God.
autumnman writes:
is not supported by any of the information I have ever come across.
How about we start with what seems to be the Bible around here.
Here you will find:
In Biblical Hebrew, there are no tenses but only two "aspects": imperfect and perfect. The imperfect is something like the future and the present tenses. The perfect is something like the past tense.
Here
There is no such thing as "tense" in biblical Hebrew.
Here
"Aspect vs. Tense
Biblical Hebrew does not have past, present and future tenses like English (modern Hebrew is another story altogether, however). Instead, action is regarded as either complete or incomplete. Incomplete action is referred to as perfect and incomplete action is referred to as imperfect. Generally speaking, the perfect aspect will be translated into English with the English past tense and the imperfect will be translated into English with the English future tense. However, this is only an approximation of the situation, and so there will be times when altogether different tenses will be better in certain circumstances."
This is the first 3 hits when I googled Hebrew tense.
Here we find this concerning the Septuagint.
I present this in response to your quoting a quote from bertot.
Following the Renaissance, a common opinion among some humanists was that the LXX translators bungled the translation from the Hebrew and that the LXX became more corrupt with time. The discovery of many fragments in the Dead Sea scrolls that agree with the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic Text proved that many of the variants in Greek were also present in early Semitic manuscripts
I gather that you do not believe in God, and that the Bible is not the Word of God but a bunch of books by man that is full of errors and is not to be believed or trusted. Correct me if I am wrong.
Now if this is what you believe and there is no God. Why are you wasting time trying to prove God does not exist by trying to demolish His Word.
The devil has been trying to do that since he deceived the woman in the garden of Eden. Billions of years ago. He has got a lot of perversions out there but God's Word is still here.
But on the other hand if there is something driving you or putting a desire into your mind to study these things maybe you should search for that entity and see if it would be your answer.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 12:21 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 5:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 321 (474332)
07-07-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by deerbreh
07-07-2008 4:13 PM


Re: Interpretation
Hi deerbreh, welcome to this part of the world.
deerbreh writes:
You cannot possibly know how the scriptures were written.
My statement: I took the scriptures as they (are) written.
Your words:........know how the scriptures (were) written.
Do you notice any difference?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:13 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:52 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 80 of 321 (474349)
07-07-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by autumnman
07-07-2008 5:46 PM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
Answer me this: Is Gen. 1:1 composed in the "Hebrew Perfect, Completed Act" sense? And, if you admit that it is, and you believe Gen. 1:1 to be the "Word of God" would that not mean that God intended Gen. 1:1 to be composed in that "Completed Act" fashion?
Genesis 1:1 was not finished until Genesis 2:3.
God is still resting from His creative work and will until the heavens melt with fervent heat and He create's a New Heaven and a New Earth.
Since Genesis 2:4 claims to be the generations of Genesis 1:1 it has to be in there somewhere.
Genesis 5:1 would come after Genesis 2:3 as it claims to be the beginning of the generations of the man created in Genesis 1:27.
Genesis 5:1 is not the beginning of the generations of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
autumnman writes:
You are wrong. And it is individuals like you that are distorting the words that comprise the Hebrew Tanakh, as well as the Alexandrian Greek Septuagint.
So you are not atheist.
You are not Christian.
That only leaves one of the branches of descendants of Abraham. You can publish the branch if you desire. If you would like to inform me in private my e-mail is available.
Now as far as individuals like me. You have never met someone like me. You have never met anyone that put forth the proposals that I have and you probably never will.
I have searched for 50 years to find someone who shared my ideas with no results.
I am just glad to get to be able to sit here and type the information where it can be read.
I am 69 years old and probably don't have too many years to live on this earth in it's present condition. So I could care less about what you think about what I believe.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Everyone has one.
I have mine and I am Entitled to it.
I will find out whether God keeps His Word when I stand at the judgment, because I have committed my soul unto His keeping as Abraham did, I believe God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 5:46 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by autumnman, posted 07-07-2008 10:41 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 83 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-08-2008 1:49 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 86 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:26 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 88 of 321 (474546)
07-09-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by deerbreh
07-08-2008 12:52 AM


Re: Interpretation
autumnman writes:
ICANT writes:
Since Genesis 2:4 claims to be the generations of Genesis 1:1 it has to be in there somewhere.
Gen. 2:4 does not make that claim. That is why you have to rearrange the Text. Try not rearranging the Text, and try not to gloss over any anomalies in the Text you might find. Read the text precisely as it is written and learn from what it conveys.
Masoretic Text
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
The Septuagint LXX Text
Genesis 2:4 This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,
King James Version Text
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
My version Text Message 60
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
If you pay close attention all of these say:
These = ????????????
Are the generations of
The heavens and the earth.
autumnman Text Message 6
Genesis 2:4 these human generations the heavens and the earth as they are created at time he makes yhwh God earth and heavens.
Explanation Message 19
The English terminology "human generations" serves to translate the Hebrew feminine plural noun ?????? used "especially in genealogies=account of a man and his descendants" BDB. Since the Heb. Eden Narrative is primarilly focused on ???? "the human archetype" the "generations" being referred to would be "human generations."
Explanation of feminine plural noun ?????? by assertion Message 63
You do realize that the feminine plural noun ?????? = generations is never used anywhere in the Hebrew Old Testament to describe brute animal genealogies? Nor is it ever used to describe genealogies of plants, rocks, seas or rivers. So what does, "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth," refer to?
In Message 68 you state:
ICANT:
Your audacious rearranging of Scripture {Hebrew, Greek, Latin & English} in order to make Scripture fit your mystically imaginative interpretation is delightfully absurd.
Now that is some pretty stiff charges in message 68. Especially when you compare my version of Genesis 2:4 to the MT, LXX, OR KJV.
But your version matches nothing.
Further interpretation by autumnman Message 70
Let me try to describe Gen. 2:4 by emphasizing the verbs "create" and "make": (The following is not a translation but rather an emphasis) as they are being created”the heavens and the earth”at the time yhwh God made earth and heavens; these are the human genealogies that exist at that time.
You further state in Message 73 more clarification.
You are missing the point. Above I am giving the basic foundation of the feminine plural noun: human genealogies. From this foundation toledot is further applied to generations, families, and races as well as the history or historical record of a family, According to Gesenius Old Testament Lexicon. The Hebrew Eden Narrative”Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24”strictly applies to the creation of the human race = ???????: these are the toledot = human generations of the heavens and the earth. These human generations include you and me, as well as all those who came before and those who will come after us.
Yet more explanation in Message 75
autumnman writes:
ICANT
You are telling me it says:
These are the generations of the humans of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
That is interpretation. Not reading what the scripture says.
I am trying to share with you that the Hebrew Eden Narrative”Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24”is not a documentation of a prehistoric space and time. The Hebrew Eden Narrative is an allegorical/proverbial/poetic representation of how God created the breathing human animal species. Let me translate Gen. 2:4 so that it reflects this a little clearer:
quote:
these human generations of the air and the land as they are created at the time he makes yhwh God earth and heavens
autumnman msg 79 writes:
If you would learn to simply read what I post we could probably move our discussion along a little.
I don't have a problem reading your posts.
I do have a problem taking you at your word. Like your word is the final authority.
Give me one reason I should accept what you say.
You make a big deal about 'the Kethib' that which is written.
Then you preach the 'Qere ' what you think should be read.
You keep telling me to read what is written and then you tell me what I should read it to say.
If I am to believe you why should I read anything? Just take your word for it and if you are wrong we would both end up in the same place.
No thanks.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:52 AM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by autumnman, posted 07-09-2008 11:30 AM ICANT has replied

  
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